"Natural"

[Tom]

" And I think that's the key: RESULTS. If you're keeping your animal a certain way, even if it is not within the conventional "textbook/careguide" way, and that animal is thriving and remaining healthy...who is anyone to tell you what you're doing is wrong?!

Eugene Bessette, a well-known pioneer in the reptile industry who mainly works with snakes, often makes the statement, "Be a student of the serpent." Of course, we can paraphrase that to whatever animal we keep, but the point is we need to let the animals teach us what is working and what is not working. Too many keepers are so caught up in trying to go "by the book" so to speak, but really, the book isn't based on anything substantial (like with sulcatas, for instance!).

"

Agree : ) and I had never previously heard "be a student of the serpent" but what a brilliant statement! There are many different ways to do right by your animals and the only way to know you are on the correct path is to see positive feedback from the animals you care for as a direct result of your own husbandry. It is awesome to have the experience of others (via journals, literature and other mediums) as a guide but ultimately all of these guides were written by other keepers observing their own animals.


[/quote]

These are great points Katherine. Without knowing it, I have been following Eugene's axiom.

Your last paragraph makes a great point. One of my downfalls is a lack of ability to find and show "scientific evidence" to support my assertions. I have always said that because I can't find a study doesn't mean it isn't true. Well your last sentence is very true. All of these studies were written by human beings who observed things. Because someone doesn't have a bunch of letters after their name or a fancy institution behind them does not mean they have not observed something.

---

I was wondering, because your following him and setting him up on a pedestal reminds me not so many years back, when keepers did the same thing with Andy Highfield and his teachings.

Your words do not fall upon deaf ears.

I do not see it as me putting him on a pedestal where he can do or say no wrong. He's just been telling me what he has seen and I have been relaying it here. The man is not trying to preach or teach me anything. I have been the one questioning him and he simply answers my questions. I don't see this as serving any purpose for him and furthering any agenda. He's just relaying info about wild sulcatas that so few people have or could even get. And unlike Andy who has occasionally spent a week or two in the habitat of his chosen species, this man grew up there.

I don't see him as on a pedestal. I see him as very down to earth and willing to share what he has seen.

 

[terryo]

BTW, this is all coming from another former petstore worker. While I may not have learned much from the alleged petstores themselves, I did learn a bit just simply working with the animals I was responsible for. Whenever a new species came in, I was always inspired to do my own research and learn as much as I could. There were many opportunities I would not have had if I had not worked in those places. It is true that today I do not have much love for petstores knowing what I know now, but I still do not regret working there.

I only have about two min. to post here....but wow...this was an excellent post, IMHO. Thank you.

 

[stells2]

Shining snakes... i tried to get my methods across... to be met with Tom telling me they were just greeks... like they didn't matter... i share my ways on other forums now... not this one ...

 

[Tccarolina]

Stells2, I keep Greeks and would love to read your perspective on raising them smooth but dry. Could you post your experiences or point me to where you already have?

I am on this forum for one reason. To learn. I am particularly interested in pyramiding, because I find it ugly and unnatural. It seems that all the new information points to humidity during rapid growth.
I would like to hear other opinions if they are out there. Are you really raising smooth Greeks in dry, low humidity conditions? If so, how?

 

[stells2]

Yes my greeks are kept dry... no humid hide... i can't remember the last time i sprayed the enclosure... the soil is bone dry... I use combined UV/heat bulbs... and suppliment with a D3 suppliment when they are being fed weeds... this is due to my climate and the failure of summer in the UK... and poor UV levels in the summer...

They do have water available 24/7... fed weeds.. with pellets added 2-3 times per week... calcium sources available at all times... temps 34 basking spot... 31 warm end... 24 cool end... night temps 18 (all temps are in celcius) soaked 3 times per week...

Internal hydration is far more important than external IMO... and has done the job for me... i keep mine as simple as i can... and have never felt the need to over complicate matters as they have always grown nicely for me...

If you would like anymore details... feel free to PM me

 

[ShadowRancher]

This is a great topic, I'm just getting into Sulcatas but I've found the lack of information on "natural" conditions frustrating, if there is one thing getting an undergrad biology degree teaches you it's to be highly cynical of other people's science

I love the "be a student of the serpent" quote, I've always believed that no one can tell you more about your animal than your animal. College students don't have a ton of extra time but we do spend plenty sitting around reading so I grab my stack of articles and camp out on a pillow next to Levi's house. I watch where in the temp gradient he likes to hang out and when, what he eats the most of ( I separated his weeds in a line a few times to really get a feel for that, as much as he seems to sniff things I think they use smell as a major "yummy" indicator), and it's been really useful to monitor his shell. I've started thinking of his shell cells as similar to plant cells, mostly empty except for the nucleus, cell wall and a central vacuole that retains water. I of course have nothing to back this up except the observation that the edges of his scutes seem to inflate and deflate based on water and humidity (like a plant). I think the new cells ar absorbing water into the "vacuole" then hardening while they are turgid (full), or at least ideally, if there is no water they get hard in the "deflated" state.
The very edges of his shell are always full and smooth because they are the part of the top shell that gets the most water in the soak, I try to pour water over him without getting his head under water but I think the top scutes have to rely mostly on humidity.

Sorry that was long and a little off topic but I just thought I'd share my observations because they seem to agree with the points in the OP...he likes weeds, his water dish and his shell is nice and smooth, even short term, with wetter conditions (I don't keep him swampy just moist with a humid hide and lots of soaks).

 

[Tom]

I share your shell "cellular" observations, but you elaborated and put it into words much better than I did. I did a post on this a while back. Check it out and tell me what you think:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...ighlight=carapace+like+a+sponge#axzz1hI4diraQ

I don't know what the "real" science behind it is, but it is an observable and repeatable observation. I think the "squiggly lines" that we sometimes see in there scutes are related to this in some way or other too. There have been several threads on these "squiggly lines" too.

 

[Tccarolina]

Yes my greeks are kept dry... no humid hide... i can't remember the last time i sprayed the enclosure... the soil is bone dry... I use combined UV/heat bulbs... and suppliment with a D3 suppliment when they are being fed weeds... this is due to my climate and the failure of summer in the UK... and poor UV levels in the summer...

They do have water available 24/7... fed weeds.. with pellets added 2-3 times per week... calcium sources available at all times... temps 34 basking spot... 31 warm end... 24 cool end... night temps 18 (all temps are in celcius) soaked 3 times per week...

Internal hydration is far more important than external IMO... and has done the job for me... i keep mine as simple as i can... and have never felt the need to over complicate matters as they have always grown nicely for me...

If you would like anymore details... feel free to PM me

This is very interesting. Have you raised hatchlings to adulthood using this setup? I would like to see some pictures of any adults you have raised from hatchlings this way.
It seems a frequent question new greek tortoise owners ask is how to get their tortoises to drink from provided water. Some of my adults drink often from water that is dripped into a rock bowl in their enclosure. Most of them never drink, as far as I know. They must get their water strickly from their food. How do you ensure your tortoises are drinking?

I've always understood greeks were particularly apt to pyramid.
I have the book "Naturalistic Keeping of Hermann's Tortoises" by Wolfgang Wegehaupt. His explanation of pyramiding matches what you say. In his book, he says that pyramiding is caused by internal drought stress and low calcium diets. He describes that keeping tortoises well-hydrated and feeding a wide variety of plants that are high in calcium, along with slow growth, are necessary. His are all raised outdoors in Germany, and he doesn't focus on raising humidity other than what his environment provides. He provides lots of water in saucers, but otherwise the substrate is well drained crushed limestone.
In spite of this, many of the pictures in his book show young tortoises that are still pyramiding slightly, indicating that he still hasn't managed to fully conquer it.

Personally, the only baby tortoises I raised were three Hermann's tortoises. I raised them on a dry substrate, with overhead heating. They were raised on soaked tortoise pellets offered daily, with calcium powder and Vitamin D drops. I soaked them once to twice a week. They grew fast, but were pyramiding badly. I moved them outside to my current Greek pen, and the pyramiding slowed down, but did not cease. I couldn't get over the pyramided look, and ended up trading them off.
Now, I'm avoiding raising baby Greeks til I'm sure I can raise them totally smooth.

What attracts me so far to the humidity camp is the positive results people seem to be having. Meg90's greek tortoise http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Novalee-my-beautiful-sun-colored-Greek#axzz1hIhQJ1zR looks fantastic, and Tom is having good success.

Andy Highfield wrote an article http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html that makes a lot of sense. He says that during rapid growth, the new scute material gets dehydrated easily, which causes it to flex inward, putting constant pressure on the newly expanding bone underneath to warp with it. This is the only theory I've read that gives an explanation for what what physically occurs.

Further, many species of tortoises in dry climates reduce feeding and activity during the hot portions of the year, and are out feeding when the food is available during the wet season.
Greek tortoises are most active in the wild during the lush wet spring, which is the most humid part of the year. At the same time, they are not often living close enough to water to regularly drink. During the dry rest of the year, little food is available, so the tortoise is less active and growing very little, if at all.
This humidity theory is the theory that makes the most sense and seems to be working well for those trying it. I'm very open to opposing theories, if the evidence is there. I want to make the best decision I can on how to keep my tortoises best. The only way I can is by carefully considering the valid options and viewpoints.

Stells2, do you have any pics of your adults?

 

[ShadowRancher]

I share your shell "cellular" observations, but you elaborated and put it into words much better than I did. I did a post on this a while back. Check it out and tell me what you think:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread...ighlight=carapace+like+a+sponge#axzz1hI4diraQ

I don't know what the "real" science behind it is, but it is an observable and repeatable observation. I think the "squiggly lines" that we sometimes see in there scutes are related to this in some way or other too. There have been several threads on these "squiggly lines" too.

Ohh good, yes this thread is exactly what I meant. I took two plant classes this last semester and I love them so I was a little worried that I just had plant on the brain when I made that comparison, glad some one else came up with it. I've been meaning to surf around EBSCO and World of Science to brush up on keratin structures, so I'm not sure of the science. But very often with specialized layered tissues the layers are linked and highly dependent on the the health of the others, so I think it sounds reasonable that this observation has something to do with how growth pattern are set.

I'll post something once I get a chance to research a bit.

 

[Tom]

That is great news Ana. I'm looking forward to hearing anything you learn or any insights that occur to you.

 

[ShadowRancher]

I found some promising articles but they'll have to wait until after the holidays, no one seems to have a printer around here and I hate reading on the computer and not being able to make snarky comments in the margins....did I say snarky? I meant constructive.

And while I'm at it do you know if Tomas has anything published yet?

 

[Tom]

I found some promising articles but they'll have to wait until after the holidays, no one seems to have a printer around here and I hate reading on the computer and not being able to make snarky comments in the margins....did I say snarky? I meant constructive.

And while I'm at it do you know if Tomas has anything published yet?

Yes he does. He's got a paper on the first 6 years of distribution data for the sulcatas the he has re-introduced into the wild. Its in French and I'm still waiting for a copy. I'm sure there is more, but this is the one I really wanna see. He is compiling all sort of data and trying to get it organized with the intention of writing and releasing a book. Who knows when that will happen.

 

[ascott]

He says that during rapid growth, the new scute material gets dehydrated easily, which causes it to flex inward, putting constant pressure on the newly expanding bone underneath to warp with it.

During the dry rest of the year, little food is available, so the tortoise is less active and growing very little, if at all.

These are very interesting statements.....? Thank you for sharing this ...

 

[wellington]

The way I am raising Tatum works for me. Tatum is only 9 months old, how do I know if it is the right way or best way. When he gets to adulthood with know problems, well then I can say it was the right way, for me, or him, that is. So all you out there insisting that your way is better or that their way isn't, do you have adult healthy tortoises to back up how well you are doing. Are you doing experiments, are you researching their native land, are you speaking with the "pros"? If not then listen and learn and yes share and let us do the same, peacefully please. By the way, my way is from Toms post
I do not mean to offend anyone or tick anyone off. I am just tired of the constant attacks on the same people, by the same people. We get it already, you don't agree, don't like them, jealous, whatever, we get it now let us learn in peace.
Thank you, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Holidays
P.S. This is for the ones out there that like to twist things. Tatum has pyramiding, followed wrong advice at first. Then I found Tom's post and now new growth coming in smooth.

 

[IRTehDuckie]

A very interesting thread indeed. Tom, I have also gone by what the books said for the first couple years when i first had my tortoises/turtles ( I have had these guys since i was 13, am now 21 this year) but after the first couple years, i stopped reading all the books and started doing my own research on them. Like you, Tom, I found that nobody really knows anything, and it was a shock to me, so you just sort of have to put it all together with the bits and pieces of info that IS out there in their natural habitat and what they do when nobody is looking.

What lynnedit said, you just have to use your instincts, just like they would if they were out there on their own.

I also completely 100% agree that they should have open availability to the RIGHT foods for them at all times with unlimited supply, which is what i try to do for my little Ted (even though in the picture its just red lettuce, but i give it to him once in a while as a treat), and he has grown quite a bit since august. His shell is getting smoother, in a healthy way, but i know he needs to be in the sun more, which is why im so desperately trying to make him his house outside on our front porch.

This is his size now, he will be 1 year on May 5th 2012

 

[wellington]

Bad habits are hard to break . He/she is still a baby and you really need to take those cigs away before it's to late
Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[IRTehDuckie]

haha does it help that they are an empty pack? haha thats funny thanks for that laugh =]

 

[lynnedit]

hey, it is a plant...nahhh...

any luck with the front porch enclosure?

 

[Tom]

After seeing Neal's results and with the success of my new style of outdoor baby enclosures I am going to try more sunshine with my current batch of babies. I've held back 6 new hatchlings for this "experiment".

I am going to try all day sunshine, but WITH hydration and sleeping in humid quarters, and see how that one goes.

 

[IRTehDuckie]

no not yet, but we have started growing his food ourselves, but getting our organic garden growing and starting him off, we've still yet to make any addition to the front porch, but id like to make his outside dwellings level with the windowsill so he'd be able to have constant sunlight, but have some sort of ramp or something so he can climb down and walk around when he pleases... i still have a lot of thinking to do about it lol