Need lighting advice after fire scare

[George]

Hello - I need some of your worldly advice! a friend of mine had a scare on saturday night/ early hours of sunday morning when her tortoise home caught on fire - Luckly her brother was able to get them out and put out the flames (i've seen the damage - they were lucky!).

Now here is her dilema - she really doesn't want to have another CHE but is interested in having abasking bulb and night blub. i've looked through past posts and notice that some people recommend the mercury vapour blub 'active' and a night blub or CHE - what do other think? and can these blubs just sit next to one another? and help would be much appreciate!

By the way her torts seem OK but going vets tomorrow 10.30am just in case! she has two indian stars.

thanks leanne

 

[George]

Anyone? - Please advise! - Vets visit went well this morning, vet said they are two very lucky tortoise's and just to keep an eye on their eating, bubbles etc...

So any help with their lighting would be very much appreciated!

 

[ISTortoiseLover]

u can always put some distance between the MVB and the night bulbs. I understand that MVBs are required to be placed directly above the tortoises, and not at an angle. So the only thing that needs moving is the night bulb, which only powers up at night. Maybe place them 1 feet apart if there's fear of them overheating or catching fire. I'm not a pro but its just my 2 cents.

 

[ekm5015]

What types of lights was he using when it happend? Any idea how it happened? Did a light fall? Figuring out the cause of the fire might help find a solution.

 

[George]

What types of lights was he using when it happend? Any idea how it happened? Did a light fall? Figuring out the cause of the fire might help find a solution.

Hi - she had a CHE hich was on 24/7 and a uv stripe light that was on for 12 hours a day. we checked out all the socket and nothing, all the insides where clean no signs of anything blowing. she said she checked before bed and everything fine. we think may some moss or one of the fake plants caught fire but the light hadn't move/ dropped very strange.

she is now very wary of CHE and wanted to go for something different so thought about MVB and a night light.

whats your view on those?

---

u can always put some distance between the MVB and the night bulbs. I understand that MVBs are required to be placed directly above the tortoises, and not at an angle. So the only thing that needs moving is the night bulb, which only powers up at night. Maybe place them 1 feet apart if there's fear of them overheating or catching fire. I'm not a pro but its just my 2 cents.

thanks 'ISTortoiseLover' 2 cents is better than no cents! thanks

 

[TortieGal]

I'm not a pro on heating and lights either and I always worry about fire hazards to. It sounds like she has it to close to the substrate and plants. I keep a piece of slate under my light no plants and try and keep the substrate moist under the light. I have my night time black light right next to the T-Rex day bulb they are both on a timer and come on at different times. I have never used a CHE it sounds like it gets pretty toastie under it, has she checked the temps right under it. Hope this helps. It’s hard to sleep at night when you’re worried about fire hazard!

 

[Tom]

Usually in these cases a fire starts because the cheap fixture was clamped to the side of the enclosure and it either falls or gets knocked into the enclosure. Sometimes they just get shifted and come too close to the side or something. What caught fire? The side of the enclosure or the stuff beneath the CHE. The temps need to be checked on any bulb, ceramic or not. If the substrate or plants caught fire and the bulb was still mounted where it was supposed to be, that means the temps were WAY too hot for the torts!

As Tortiegal suggested, there should be a flat rock or piece of slate directly under the bulb and temps should be checked with an infared heat gun or a remote probe from a thermometer. The fixture should be securely mounted from directly overhead, so that it can be raised or lowered to get the desired temp. I usually hang mine by the cord. I tie a knot in the cord and use zip-ties to hold it at the right place and prevent slippage.

Also what type of fixture was being used? The little cheap plastic types are no good. They typically catch fire or burn out, especially with a CHE. Only ceramic fixtures should be used. They only cost around $12 at any hardware store.

I've been using CHE for 20 years. They are very reliable and don't cause fires without some pretty serious "operator error".

 

[tortoisenerd]

The big things to minimize fire risk are to properly affix bulbs, have a fail safe (back up attachment), and know the temps in the enclosure (if its so hot that a plant under it can catch fire--its way too close). If the fixtures aren't attached properly they can fall in. You want it in a way that it can't be accidentally knocked in (such as by a cat).

I use a lamp stand with a wide flat plate base that is stuck under the enclosure for my MVB (which must have the bulb face parallel to the substrate and use a ceramic socket fixture). The fixture has a hook and you hang it on the lamp stand. You can even use a clamp as a back up to that, but I just wrap the cord around as my fail safe. For my CHE, I use a very sturdy clamp and have it so that even if there was an earthquake or the entire enclosure was bumped, it can't shift. I check the temps every other day and adjust bulbs as needed. Having a good smoke alarm is very important.

Make sure your neighbors know you have animals (what type and where in the house) and have a key (or tell them not to be afraid to break the window if you aren't home and the alarm is going off). Some people stick a sticker on their window with what pets they have. With reptiles and other small animals, the location in the house is also important. Having containers near the enclosure which the animals can be transferred into is a good idea, and have hand warmers and any other supplies in an emergency kit (in case of cold weather a hand warmer wrapped in a towel can save your tort's life). Not much we can do about flammable substrates--I use wood!

I hope your friend can figure out exactly what went wrong and plan for the worst. If the CHE looked stable but the fixture drooped down but stayed clamped, it may have come into contact with a plant or moss and then started the fire. Some fixtures rotate so they can wiggle loose. You want it so that even if it does wiggle like that, it is still far enough away (you may have to use a higher wattage bulb and "waste" some of the energy so you can keep it further away). Also make sure if your tort climbs on stuff they can never come in contact with the bulbs/fixtures.

 

[George]

I'm not a pro on heating and lights either and I always worry about fire hazards to. It sounds like she has it to close to the substrate and plants. I keep a piece of slate under my light no plants and try and keep the substrate moist under the light. I have my night time black light right next to the T-Rex day bulb they are both on a timer and come on at different times. I have never used a CHE it sounds like it gets pretty toastie under it, has she checked the temps right under it. Hope this helps. It’s hard to sleep at night when you’re worried about fire hazard!

We too believe that the substrate or palnts caught fire and yes it does get rather toastie underneath! she is thinking more along the lines of a day bulb and night light but now the dilema 'what make?'

---

Usually in these cases a fire starts because the cheap fixture was clamped to the side of the enclosure and it either falls or gets knocked into the enclosure. Sometimes they just get shifted and come too close to the side or something. What caught fire? The side of the enclosure or the stuff beneath the CHE. The temps need to be checked on any bulb, ceramic or not. If the substrate or plants caught fire and the bulb was still mounted where it was supposed to be, that means the temps were WAY too hot for the torts!

As Tortiegal suggested, there should be a flat rock or piece of slate directly under the bulb and temps should be checked with an infared heat gun or a remote probe from a thermometer. The fixture should be securely mounted from directly overhead, so that it can be raised or lowered to get the desired temp. I usually hang mine by the cord. I tie a knot in the cord and use zip-ties to hold it at the right place and prevent slippage.

Also what type of fixture was being used? The little cheap plastic types are no good. They typically catch fire or burn out, especially with a CHE. Only ceramic fixtures should be used. They only cost around $12 at any hardware store.

I've been using CHE for 20 years. They are very reliable and don't cause fires without some pretty serious "operator error".

Tom - as tortoisenerd said "I use a lamp stand with a wide flat plate base that is stuck under the enclosure for my MVB (which must have the bulb face parallel to the substrate and use a ceramic socket fixture). The fixture has a hook and you hang it on the lamp stand. You can even use a clamp as a back up to that, but I just wrap the cord around as my fail safe. For my CHE, I use a very sturdy clamp and have it so that even if there was an earthquake or the entire enclosure was bumped, it can't shift. I check the temps every other day and adjust bulbs as needed. Having a good smoke alarm is very important."
she too had a clamp stand and ceramic socket which had a hook to hang it our only thoughts are that a plant or the substrate caught fire the CHE was still attached to its dome shade thing attached to the clamp stand. no damage to the inside of the socket or wiring. Damage from fire was contained to back of terrarium (it had a fake wall) which we believe held the fire there and probably saved the torts lives, as they had moved to front with less damage. we also believe lack of ventalation did not help so have order a wooden tort table.
Do you have any advice on how to heat the enclosure without using a CHE?

 

[Tom]

Something must have gone terribly wrong there. What was the wattage and how far away was it? A CHE is basically a light bulb with the "filament" encased in ceramic. Light bulbs make 20% light and 80% heat, where a CHE makes 100% heat. The thing is, if you don't figure out what went wrong here, you'll have the same problem with a light bulb too.

Tortoises are basically heated with overhead bulbs of one type or another. That's just how its done. Some of the forest torts are kept at an ambient warm room temp, bust most need a basking light. Undertank heaters are far more likely to cause a problem are are generally not recommended.

 

[George]

Something must have gone terribly wrong there. What was the wattage and how far away was it? A CHE is basically a light bulb with the "filament" encased in ceramic. Light bulbs make 20% light and 80% heat, where a CHE makes 100% heat. The thing is, if you don't figure out what went wrong here, you'll have the same problem with a light bulb too.

Tortoises are basically heated with overhead bulbs of one type or another. That's just how its done. Some of the forest torts are kept at an ambient warm room temp, bust most need a basking light. Undertank heaters are far more likely to cause a problem are are generally not recommended.

Hi Tom - i believe the CHE was 100w, but not 100% sure and i believe it was closer than it should have been as the only thing we can thing of was that some moss or the plant was knocked over or raised as they dug under it and it touched the CHE. she had an insurance investiagtor round this morning and they could not see how the fire started either. she has gone for a more open, airy house for them and is staying well away from glass enclosures!

She's thinking of a bulb and night bulb but wants to know how close they can be and does the night heat source need to be over them whilst they sleep or just provide a warm area?

 

[Yvonne G]

This hasn't been mentioned in a while, and it might be something for your friend to consider. I don't use CHE's because they cost too much compared to a light bulb, so I use incandescent black light bulbs. These are not anything special, just plain old black bulbs. You can buy them at Wal-Mart for around $3 a bulb. They put out enough heat to keep an indoor habitat warm during the night hours, but the light is invisible to the tortoise.

 

[George]

The big things to minimize fire risk are to properly affix bulbs, have a fail safe (back up attachment), and know the temps in the enclosure (if its so hot that a plant under it can catch fire--its way too close). If the fixtures aren't attached properly they can fall in. You want it in a way that it can't be accidentally knocked in (such as by a cat).

I use a lamp stand with a wide flat plate base that is stuck under the enclosure for my MVB (which must have the bulb face parallel to the substrate and use a ceramic socket fixture). The fixture has a hook and you hang it on the lamp stand. You can even use a clamp as a back up to that, but I just wrap the cord around as my fail safe. For my CHE, I use a very sturdy clamp and have it so that even if there was an earthquake or the entire enclosure was bumped, it can't shift. I check the temps every other day and adjust bulbs as needed. Having a good smoke alarm is very important.

Make sure your neighbors know you have animals (what type and where in the house) and have a key (or tell them not to be afraid to break the window if you aren't home and the alarm is going off). Some people stick a sticker on their window with what pets they have. With reptiles and other small animals, the location in the house is also important. Having containers near the enclosure which the animals can be transferred into is a good idea, and have hand warmers and any other supplies in an emergency kit (in case of cold weather a hand warmer wrapped in a towel can save your tort's life). Not much we can do about flammable substrates--I use wood!

I hope your friend can figure out exactly what went wrong and plan for the worst. If the CHE looked stable but the fixture drooped down but stayed clamped, it may have come into contact with a plant or moss and then started the fire. Some fixtures rotate so they can wiggle loose. You want it so that even if it does wiggle like that, it is still far enough away (you may have to use a higher wattage bulb and "waste" some of the energy so you can keep it further away). Also make sure if your tort climbs on stuff they can never come in contact with the bulbs/fixtures.

Torrtoisenerd - sorry i did not reply last night but my husband wanted to check out football stuff on line! as i stated in Tom's post she has (had) and lamp stand with flat plate which was held in position by the base of the terrarium.The CHE was connected to a ceramic socket with hook bit and clamped to top part of stand, very secure! with all this in mind we believe it could have been too close to a plant or moss if raised by the torts when they dug under it. she now has fire alarms everywhere!but will not be letting her neighbours know, dodgy area!
thank you so much for all your advice i will pass it on to her. leanne

---

This hasn't been mentioned in a while, and it might be something for your friend to consider. I don't use CHE's because they cost too much compared to a light bulb, so I use incandescent black light bulbs. These are not anything special, just plain old black bulbs. You can buy them at Wal-Mart for around $3 a bulb. They put out enough heat to keep an indoor habitat warm during the night hours, but the light is invisible to the tortoise.

This is exactly what she is thinking of using for night time heat her question would be what is good for daytime and how close can the day and night time bulbs sit? or does the night bulb just need to heat an area and not directly the torts?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Haha Yvonne beat me to it...I also use black light bulbs. I have them in numerous habitats and use a clamp light fixture bought at Kmart for $8. CHE's cost too much to run and get too hot but the black lightbulb gets hot enough and costs pennies to run. I use a 10.0 strip UVB light on some and a 100 watt Trex UVB on others, all have the black lightbulb...
If your friend could put her Stars outside for 15 to 20 minutes a day she wouldn't need a UVB light. I have raised several tortoises without a UVB light at all...I have a few right now without any UVB light, but I put them outside for a time ...HTH

 

[Tom]

Hi Leanne. I'm not a star keeper, but I know they are prone to respiratory infections. Funny coincidence is, I'm right in the middle of reading (and re-reading) Jerry Fife's Star Tortoise Book. It is an EXCELLENT book if you don't already have it. I bought mine from Tyler at http://www.tortoisesupply.com/

I would shoot for keeping the whole cage 75-80 at night. Whether you use a CHE or a bulb like what Yvonne suggested you'll just have to use a thermometer or two and adjust the height of the bulb to get the desired temp. Usually around 18" is a good place to start.

I would love it if some actual star tortoise keepers would chime in with their night temps for you.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

The big things to minimize fire risk are to properly affix bulbs, have a fail safe (back up attachment), and know the temps in the enclosure (if its so hot that a plant under it can catch fire--its way too close). If the fixtures aren't attached properly they can fall in. You want it in a way that it can't be accidentally knocked in (such as by a cat).

I use a lamp stand with a wide flat plate base that is stuck under the enclosure for my MVB (which must have the bulb face parallel to the substrate and use a ceramic socket fixture). The fixture has a hook and you hang it on the lamp stand. You can even use a clamp as a back up to that, but I just wrap the cord around as my fail safe. For my CHE, I use a very sturdy clamp and have it so that even if there was an earthquake or the entire enclosure was bumped, it can't shift. I check the temps every other day and adjust bulbs as needed. Having a good smoke alarm is very important.

Make sure your neighbors know you have animals (what type and where in the house) and have a key (or tell them not to be afraid to break the window if you aren't home and the alarm is going off). Some people stick a sticker on their window with what pets they have. With reptiles and other small animals, the location in the house is also important. Having containers near the enclosure which the animals can be transferred into is a good idea, and have hand warmers and any other supplies in an emergency kit (in case of cold weather a hand warmer wrapped in a towel can save your tort's life). Not much we can do about flammable substrates--I use wood!

I hope your friend can figure out exactly what went wrong and plan for the worst. If the CHE looked stable but the fixture drooped down but stayed clamped, it may have come into contact with a plant or moss and then started the fire. Some fixtures rotate so they can wiggle loose. You want it so that even if it does wiggle like that, it is still far enough away (you may have to use a higher wattage bulb and "waste" some of the energy so you can keep it further away). Also make sure if your tort climbs on stuff they can never come in contact with the bulbs/fixtures.

Torrtoisenerd - sorry i did not reply last night but my husband wanted to check out football stuff on line! as i stated in Tom's post she has (had) and lamp stand with flat plate which was held in position by the base of the terrarium.The CHE was connected to a ceramic socket with hook bit and clamped to top part of stand, very secure! with all this in mind we believe it could have been too close to a plant or moss if raised by the torts when they dug under it. she now has fire alarms everywhere!but will not be letting her neighbours know, dodgy area!
thank you so much for all your advice i will pass it on to her. leanne

---

This hasn't been mentioned in a while, and it might be something for your friend to consider. I don't use CHE's because they cost too much compared to a light bulb, so I use incandescent black light bulbs. These are not anything special, just plain old black bulbs. You can buy them at Wal-Mart for around $3 a bulb. They put out enough heat to keep an indoor habitat warm during the night hours, but the light is invisible to the tortoise.

This is exactly what she is thinking of using for night time heat her question would be what is good for daytime and how close can the day and night time bulbs sit? or does the night bulb just need to heat an area and not directly the torts?

---

I put my hand flat on the substrate then move the black light bulb up and down until my hand can feel toasty but not burny, about 6 inches away usually...

 

[George]

[/quote]

I put my hand flat on the substrate then move the black light bulb up and down until my hand can feel toasty but not burny, about 6 inches away usually...
[/quote]

Thank you Maggie!

---

Hi Leanne. I'm not a star keeper, but I know they are prone to respiratory infections. Funny coincidence is, I'm right in the middle of reading (and re-reading) Jerry Fife's Star Tortoise Book. It is an EXCELLENT book if you don't already have it. I bought mine from Tyler at http://www.tortoisesupply.com/

I would shoot for keeping the whole cage 75-80 at night. Whether you use a CHE or a bulb like what Yvonne suggested you'll just have to use a thermometer or two and adjust the height of the bulb to get the desired temp. Usually around 18" is a good place to start.

I would love it if some actual star tortoise keepers would chime in with their night temps for you.

I have this book too, i brought it when i got my first star. it has excellent advice in it.

So if i'm correct, your saying keep whole enclosure 75-80 at night so the night light does not need to be directly on them but nearer to the warm end?! and then the daytime/basking bulb can be set up without the two bulbs being placed too close to each other. Correct?

Regarding other star keepers 'Stells' aka Kelly has been giving me good advice (on shelledwarrior forum) and will be up loading some photo's of her star set upfor me to see - so they are out there! LOL

---

Hi Leanne. I'm not a star keeper, but I know they are prone to respiratory infections. Funny coincidence is, I'm right in the middle of reading (and re-reading) Jerry Fife's Star Tortoise Book. It is an EXCELLENT book if you don't already have it. I bought mine from Tyler at http://www.tortoisesupply.com/

I would shoot for keeping the whole cage 75-80 at night. Whether you use a CHE or a bulb like what Yvonne suggested you'll just have to use a thermometer or two and adjust the height of the bulb to get the desired temp. Usually around 18" is a good place to start.

I would love it if some actual star tortoise keepers would chime in with their night temps for you.

I have this book too, i brought it when i got my first star. it has excellent advice in it.

So if i'm correct, your saying keep whole enclosure 75-80 at night so the night light does not need to be directly on them but nearer to the warm end?! and then the daytime/basking bulb can be set up without the two bulbs being placed too close to each other. Correct?

Regarding other star keepers 'Stells' aka Kelly has been giving me good advice (on shelledwarrior forum) and will be up loading some photo's of her star set upfor me to see - so they are out there! LOL
[/quote]

Sorry forgot to ask they will be moving to a 4ft x 2ft wooden enclosure what would you, and others, recommend as the correct wattage to buy - both the night time and daytime bulbs.

 

[patrickstar]

are they small tortoises? are they inside? i have 2 stars one is 5 months and one is 3 years. they are inside tortoises. i have a plastic container, that i put electrical tape on top to make it darker inside, and i have a 75 watt red bulb on on top of it, its stays about 85 at night inside, i havent had a problem. i don't know how to take pictures and transfer them to this websight or i would show you, if i think they maybe getting a little breeze, i cover them with a soft blanket, there like my babies what can i say.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Wow 75-85 at night seems very hot to me...most torts do need a night temp drop like they get in the wild. I keep my enclosure 70-95 in the day and 60-70 at night, but if it was a hatchling I'd do more like 65-75. I would have them get a 100 Watt Mercury Vapor Bulb such as a Mega Ray of T-Rex (unless the tort can get outside for UVB on a regular basis, then you just want a regular house light bulb), plus a 100 Watt CHE or black light bulb for night and any extra day heat you might need. I have my 8 sq ft enclosure just with those two. In the winter I keep the CHE on 24/7 and have it on the opposite side of the MVB, so it adds extra day heat and then acts as the night heat (no CHE in the warmer months). We keep our house cooler to keep our bill low. If you have your house warmer and the enclosure can have the low temp be the house temp, you can get away with less bulbs. I think the distance the fixtures are away from the substrate, the way they are placed, and the way they are fastened, will solve all the problems. I highly doubt the CHE was the problem unless it was more of a wiring problem, or a real fluke accident. An accurate thermometer like a temp gun is a must when keeping torts.

Use these instructions to use photos in threads: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-1408.html

 

[George]

I would have them get a 100 Watt Mercury Vapor Bulb such as a Mega Ray of T-Rex(unless the tort can get outside for UVB on a regular basis, then you just want a regular house light bulb), plus a 100 Watt CHE or black light bulb for night and any extra day heat you might need.

tortoisenerd - where can i get a 100 Watt Mercury Vapor Bulb such as a Mega Ray of T-Rex from, preferable in the uk, i've been searching but cannot find a 100w one?