Need suggestions for preparing 4 desert tort yearlings for hibernation.

[AZTorts]

I have decided to let my 4 Arizona tort yearlings hibernate outside this winter. The people I got them from last May did not hibernate them last winter so this will be their first time. I just can't see bringing them in and keeping them in bins for 6 months after they have gotten used to being outside. I still bring them in at night but that will soon end. They seem much happier and less stressed in their outside habitat. So what I'm looking for is how to make their winter hides. Their enclosure is a 6' x 10' modified dog kennel with a roof. The largest tort is less than 3" long, so there is ample space for several hides. I would like some advice on what the hide dimensions should be for these little guys. How deep, how big of an opening, what kind of substrate to use in it, etc. What to make it out of...wood sides and top set down in the ground? What works for keeping them warm enough to survive, cool enough to hibernate? Leaves? Mulch? I live in the Phoenix area. Thanks in advance for any tips!

 

[Arnold_rules]

I understand opinions vary on this topic, but my tortoise is 55 years old and has been in the family that entire time. I inherited him. He has hibernated in everything from under a side walk, to inside a garage, under a outdoor water heater and even inside a cabinet sitting outside. Since I have had him, he has had to stay up one winter due to surgery, one winter in his burrow and two winters in a box in the garage. I have had desert tortoises when I was younger and always allowed them to do their winter naps outside in natural burrows.

Do they have their own natural burrows? If they do, then that might be the best place for them to take their long winter's rest. It has to be deep enough so that they do not freeze, my tortoise's burrow is about three feet underground and I have not had any issues in Gilbert. The one thing to watch out for is flooding during the winter monsoons.

If you do go with something other than a natural underground burrow, be sure to soak them once a month to be sure they stay hydrated.

Good luck and I am sure other old timers will chime in.

 

[AZTorts]

Thanks you! 55 years old! Wow! That's really neat! I truly enjoyed reading your post about all the different places he has hibernated over the years. He sounds very resourceful and seems to like to change things up! LOL

Mine do not have burrows at all. I don't know if it's true but I have read that they don't actually dig their own when they are as young as mine are. So I'm trying to figure out how to make burrows for them until they start digging their own. Rain won't be a problem since the whole enclosure has a roof and I will put the burrow openings facing towards the center of the habitat. My two box turtles have hibernated in there during the past two winters. This summer they seem to prefer being out in the garden so I'm working on a hide for them out there. My thought for the tortoises was a wooden top and sides so it can't collapse in on them but to leave the bottom dirt. I would sink it down into the ground and cover the top with dirt and put some kind of substrate inside to keep them a little hydrated.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

My enclosure has a overhang in the pen so if it's raining they can go under it , if it's too sunny they can go under it , and in the fall I fill it with hay and they go in it and last fall it would be cold for a week and then it would get warm for a week and so on . So they could eat the hay if ungry . And mine have started digging a burrow but it's about a foot deep .


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[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Sorry I to live in Phx, AZ


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[AZTorts]

Sorry I to live in Phx, AZ


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Oh, hay, that sounds like a good idea. How deep do you have the hay? So you didn't make a burrow for them, they just nestled in the hay? And now that they're older they've started digging a burrow. How old are they?
Yes, the winters don't stay cold throughout the season here in the valley. One of my box turtles came out of hibernation a few times last winter.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

This was my box turtle last spring and I think my desert torts are about 3-5 years old .


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[Tom]

I wouldn't do this outside. I could go on and on with horror stories of predators, rats, freezing, getting too warm in a climate like yours, drowning, collapsing burrows etc. I prefer to hibernate, but I prefer to do it in controlled conditions rather than risk it outside subject to the whims of weather extremes and whatever wild animal happens to sniff them out while they slumber.

Arnold's story is cool, and I'm glad he made it, but Arnold's story is not typical. There are hundreds of other stories that end with a dead tortoise for one reason or another. I suggest you take the necessary steps outside, like fasting, soaking, etc. and then bring them inside to either an active fridge with a properly set temperature, or and old fridge that doesn't work, but sits in the coolest area you have. Even a non-working fridge will even out the above ground temperature extremes.

Leaving them outside is a huge gamble and many tortoises don't survive that gamble.

And since I know someone reading this is going to go there... Your back yard and your above ground man made enclosure is NOT the wild, even though they may live wild not too far from where you live. You won't find wild babies inches from the extremes of surface temperatures out in the wild in winter. And the adults are at least several feet down.

 

[AZTorts]

This was my box turtle last spring View attachment 93529 and I think my desert torts are about 3-5 years old .


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He's so cute! He reminds me of my three toed boxie.

 

[AZTorts]

I wouldn't do this outside. I could go on and on with horror stories of predators, rats, freezing, getting too warm in a climate like yours, drowning, collapsing burrows etc. I prefer to hibernate, but I prefer to do it in controlled conditions rather than risk it outside subject to the whims of weather extremes and whatever wild animal happens to sniff them out while they slumber.

Arnold's story is cool, and I'm glad he made it, but Arnold's story is not typical. There are hundreds of other stories that end with a dead tortoise for one reason or another. I suggest you take the necessary steps outside, like fasting, soaking, etc. and then bring them inside to either an active fridge with a properly set temperature, or and old fridge that doesn't work, but sits in the coolest area you have. Even a non-working fridge will even out the above ground temperature extremes.

Leaving them outside is a huge gamble and many tortoises don't survive that gamble.

And since I know someone reading this is going to go there... Your back yard and your above ground man made enclosure is NOT the wild, even though they may live wild not too far from where you live. You won't find wild babies inches from the extremes of surface temperatures out in the wild in winter. And the adults are at least several feet down.

Tom is your recommendation for indoor hibernating for tortoises of all ages or just for the really young ones like my yearlings?

This is what I found on the Sonora Desert Museum tortoise care sheet...

Hibernation in Hatchlings
If healthy, hatchlings should be allowed to hibernate during their first winter, just like they would do under natural conditions. As the weather becomes cooler in the fall, the appetite of the hatchlings should naturally decrease. Do not provide any supplemental food after approximately October 1. If a hatchling attempts to hibernate outside the burrow, move it inside the burrow. During hibernation either inside or outside, some mortality can be expected, but survival of hibernating captive hatchlings is usually considerably higher than in the wild.

An inside hibernation is acceptable if the same methods outlined for adults are used. Approximately 10 days prior to placing hatchlings in hibernation, feeding should be stopped to allow the digestive tract to empty. During hibernation hatchlings should be soaked in a shallow dish containing approximately ½” of water for 30 minutes every 2-3 weeks. When the hatchlings become active in the spring, they should be removed from hibernation and placed in their enclosure to resume regular feeding.

It says ideally, the temperature should not go below 65 º. My fridge is much colder than that. So maybe I should consider keeping them in the utility room in the garage? It is a separate room from the garage so it wouldn't be affected by the garage door opening and closing and it wouldn't have the exhaust fumes either.

So if done inside you wake them up to soak them? How deep asleep are they? This sounds tricky to me.

 

[ascott]

I wouldn't do this outside.

I 100% support this statement.....I have had to literally rest on knees and dig out tortoise from slopping wet, heavy mud outdoors a couple of times....I now do not support brumation here OUTDOORS.....I do fully support the cycle indoors. I have adult tortoise here, they rest comfortably in their individual boxes for approx. 16 weeks during the winter...I have a closet that is located in a space that use to be attached garage...the space was built to be included in the house as living space....the room works perfectly once I close down all vents to the space...the temp in the closet ranges from about 49-55....each tort has their own space within the closet, the door gets closed and I will only bug them about once a month or so by a very very very dim light and a tickle to the foot ...this causes them to exhale so I can hear their breath...all smooth and clear...they remain on their beauty rest.....if I were to ever hear anything different then the tort would be brought out of brumation and forced awake for the remainder of the season....

I personally would not support outdoor brumation for the young tortoise....of course if the torts were in the wild they would do what they need to to get through the winter months....or they would die, there are some that end up doing both in the wild.

However, preparation for brumation starts early in the spring....the entire time I have the torts the goal is to offer them plenty of food, hydration and sun time....all with the intent to offer the most healthy tort possible for brumation...

Just my two cents

 

[Tom]

My recommendation to hibernate is for any species that would normally hibernate in the wild and any age. I can see the logic of skipping the first year for a person with no experience hibernating a tortoise, but what I usually recommend is to find someone in your area, with your species, who has been doing it successfully and try to get them to "mentor" you through it. The problem with DTs, vs. Mediterranean species for example, is that most DT keepers figure they are near the natural habitat, so just leave them outside to fend for themselves and hope for the best. In some cases it actually works for a while but on year 2 or 5 or 20, the weather is going to finally do something that is unsurvivable to them. My good friend Cory (Spikethebest), a founding member of this forum, lost is favorite DT ever, Spike, to this sort of thing. He hibernated in his self made backyard burrow every year with no problem until one year we had unusually cold temps and Spike literally froze to death. If you had asked him about the practice for all the years PRIOR to Spikes death, I'm sure he would have told you that outdoor hibernation was totally safe and fine. I'm not saying what I say based on experience with one tortoise in one yard. I base what I say on hundreds of cases.

Please re-read my second paragraph above. I said " ...and then bring them inside to either an active fridge with a properly set temperature, or and old fridge that doesn't work, but sits in the coolest area you have." Your fridge with your food in it is probably not at a "properly set temperature". Like Angela I've had perfect results at 48-55 degrees F. I use a separate fridge and I would not do it in an active garage with exhaust fumes.

About that quoted info from the Museum. How sad is that?
1. 65 is much too warm. They will burn through their fat reserves much too quickly.
2. "Some mortality can be expected..." TOTALLY unacceptable! Yes mortality can be expected if you leave them outside above ground and miss lots of important but small details... I've never lost a single animal of any species when properly hibernating indoors.
3. I cut them off food for 14 days, and also soak them daily to hydrate them and push the remaining food through.
4. I can't say October 1st is the right day for this. Some years it is. Other years November 15th is the day, or anywhere in between.
5. I have never woken them up for soaking. I suppose at 65 degrees, a person might need to.
6. I repeat the daily soaking process for two weeks at the end of hibernation too.

It is difficult as a new person to know WHICH advice to take or who to listen too. Good luck and I hope you choose wisely.

 

[AZTorts]

I 100% support this statement.....I have had to literally rest on knees and dig out tortoise from slopping wet, heavy mud outdoors a couple of times....I now do not support brumation here OUTDOORS.....I do fully support the cycle indoors. I have adult tortoise here, they rest comfortably in their individual boxes for approx. 16 weeks during the winter...I have a closet that is located in a space that use to be attached garage...the space was built to be included in the house as living space....the room works perfectly once I close down all vents to the space...the temp in the closet ranges from about 49-55....each tort has their own space within the closet, the door gets closed and I will only bug them about once a month or so by a very very very dim light and a tickle to the foot ...this causes them to exhale so I can hear their breath...all smooth and clear...they remain on their beauty rest.....if I were to ever hear anything different then the tort would be brought out of brumation and forced awake for the remainder of the season....

I personally would not support outdoor brumation for the young tortoise....of course if the torts were in the wild they would do what they need to to get through the winter months....or they would die, there are some that end up doing both in the wild.

However, preparation for brumation starts early in the spring....the entire time I have the torts the goal is to offer them plenty of food, hydration and sun time....all with the intent to offer the most healthy tort possible for brumation...

Just my two cents

Thank you for your advice! The room I would use has no duct work in it. It's got an entrance into it from the garage. Within it is a closet with shelves that I could put them. I don't know what the temperature average is during the winter. I would have to keep watching to see how cool it gets. I'm not concerned about it getting too cool in there, rather that it doesn't stay cool enough.

 

[AZTorts]

My recommendation to hibernate is for any species that would normally hibernate in the wild and any age. I can see the logic of skipping the first year for a person with no experience hibernating a tortoise, but what I usually recommend is to find someone in your area, with your species, who has been doing it successfully and try to get them to "mentor" you through it. The problem with DTs, vs. Mediterranean species for example, is that most DT keepers figure they are near the natural habitat, so just leave them outside to fend for themselves and hope for the best. In some cases it actually works for a while but on year 2 or 5 or 20, the weather is going to finally do something that is unsurvivable to them. My good friend Cory (Spikethebest), a founding member of this forum, lost is favorite DT ever, Spike, to this sort of thing. He hibernated in his self made backyard burrow every year with no problem until one year we had unusually cold temps and Spike literally froze to death. If you had asked him about the practice for all the years PRIOR to Spikes death, I'm sure he would have told you that outdoor hibernation was totally safe and fine. I'm not saying what I say based on experience with one tortoise in one yard. I base what I say on hundreds of cases.

Please re-read my second paragraph above. I said " ...and then bring them inside to either an active fridge with a properly set temperature, or and old fridge that doesn't work, but sits in the coolest area you have." Your fridge with your food in it is probably not at a "properly set temperature". Like Angela I've had perfect results at 48-55 degrees F. I use a separate fridge and I would not do it in an active garage with exhaust fumes.

About that quoted info from the Museum. How sad is that?
1. 65 is much too warm. They will burn through their fat reserves much too quickly.
2. "Some mortality can be expected..." TOTALLY unacceptable! Yes mortality can be expected if you leave them outside above ground and miss lots of important but small details... I've never lost a single animal of any species when properly hibernating indoors.
3. I cut them off food for 14 days, and also soak them daily to hydrate them and push the remaining food through.
4. I can't say October 1st is the right day for this. Some years it is. Other years November 15th is the day, or anywhere in between.
5. I have never woken them up for soaking. I suppose at 65 degrees, a person might need to.
6. I repeat the daily soaking process for two weeks at the end of hibernation too.

It is difficult as a new person to know WHICH advice to take or who to listen too. Good luck and I hope you choose wisely.

You through me off with the "active fridge" because I took that to mean one that is in use rather than one that works. LOL The room I would use has an opening from the garage into it, just like the house does. The door closes tight, exhaust would not be a problem in that room. As far as the outside enclosure, predators would not be a problem. Neither would rain water going in, in amounts that could be dangerous to them. Now the temperature, that could be a problem depending on the winter. So I see that being able to control the temperature where they hibernate would be a big plus.

You said:

4. I can't say October 1st is the right day for this. Some years it is. Other years November 15th is the day, or anywhere in between.

So how do you know when to cut off their food if the time can fluctuate that much? Then after day 14 you just put them in their boxes and then into the fridge and they go to sleep?

The only person I know who has a desert tortoise keeps him outside and tucks him into a place that's dry and has lots of cover and leaves.

Thanks again Tom for your advice.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

My over hang is about 2feet deep about 2 feet high and about 6 feet long and I fill it with loose hay


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[Tom]

So how do you know when to cut off their food if the time can fluctuate that much? Then after day 14 you just put them in their boxes and then into the fridge and they go to sleep?

I watch the weather (10 day forecast) and their behavior. As the days get shorter, days and nights get cooler and the weather begins to turn, they usually tell ME when its time. Once they stop eating or greatly reduce their appetites and I see a trend of colder weather coming for the next 10 days, I'll make the call. Its all by feel. I soak daily and do what I need to do to keep them warm enough to stay active and empty their guts. Some years summer just lasts a long time and we have a hot October, and other years the hot weather just disappears at the end of September. No way to predict it, so I just watch it.

On the bright side, you can just watch the weather here where I am and you'll have an extra 2 days notice about what's coming your way.

 

[AZTorts]

My over hang is about 2feet deep about 2 feet high and about 6 feet long and I fill it with loose hay


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I have about an 18" overhang of sorts inside the covered enclosure. The past two winters my boxies hibernated under them. I had them filled with leaves. I have no idea how far down into the ground they went. But then they don't really burrow the way desert tortoises do.

 

[AZTorts]

I watch the weather (10 day forecast) and their behavior. As the days get shorter, days and nights get cooler and the weather begins to turn, they usually tell ME when its time. Once they stop eating or greatly reduce their appetites and I see a trend of colder weather coming for the next 10 days, I'll make the call. Its all by feel. I soak daily and do what I need to do to keep them warm enough to stay active and empty their guts. Some years summer just lasts a long time and we have a hot October, and other years the hot weather just disappears at the end of September. No way to predict it, so I just watch it.

On the bright side, you can just watch the weather here where I am and you'll have an extra 2 days notice about what's coming your way.

Sounds complicated! Maybe the Farmer's Almanac would be the way to go. LOL I'll just wait for you to give me the heads up. LOL

 

[Tom]

It would be much easier to just give a date, but the weather is different every year. Seems like each year summer just sort of lingers on for a while and then one day I realize that winter has arrived.

It has never been all that hard to predict and see it coming, and we know approximately when its coming, so... I don't know. I don't find it all that complicated. You are welcome to keep in contact with me and I'll tell you when I start the process. I'm planning on doing a thread this year on hibernating my russians. Sort of an ongoing thread showing all the steps and time frame.

 

[Yvonne G]

My tortoises do their own thing prior to hibernation. Talking about desert tortoises now. They live outside. Their burrow is a man made shelter sitting on cement made from cinder blocks with a plywood top. In the fall I cover the top with sheet plastic to water-proof it, then I start raking up the leaves in their pen and packing the leaves inside the shelter. The tortoise come out and sun or eat, then they go back inside. I keep watching them. When they stop eating I know the time is near. They come out and sun then go back in. Once they stop coming out, usually two or three weeks after they've stopped eating, I make sure the interior cavity is filled with leaves and I block the doorway. Then I continue raking up the leaves but now I pile them on top and around the outside of the shelter. I end up with a great big pile of leaves and inside it is waterproof and insulated enough that the tortoises won't freeze.

The russian tortoises are similar except that I don't leave them outside. Once they've gone to ground and aren't coming out anymore I find them, box them up in shredded newspaper and put them into chest-type freezers. The freezers aren't plugged in and they are situated inside an old abandoned house on my property. The temperature fluctuates inside the house, but the freezers are so well insulated that once the interior temperature equalizes between warm day and cold night, it pretty much stays constant at or around 45F degrees.

I don't disturb my hibernating tortoises. When I hear them scratching around in the spring I bring them back outside. Because they are now acclimated to being cold, I don't worry if the outside temp dip down to cold. I leave the tortoises alone outside. The only time I interfere is if it rains. Being cold and wet is not good for tortoises of any species. So if it rains I make sure they're all inside their shelters and I block the doors.