nursing tortoises who want to sleep

[gogo0313]

About four weeks ago I adopted two desert tortoises from a tortoise rescue. At the time they had bubbly noses and were not yet hibernating, but very sleepy and slowed down. On the advice of the rescue, I've kept them warm and awake in an indoor enclosure with uvb/heat lamps and some sunny outdoor time when temperatures have been over 70. The rescu suggested the bubbly noses should resolve in a few weeks. The bubbly noses have decreased but congestion is still present. They've gotten warm daily baths, and since I've been keeping them warm I've offered food daily. They haven't eaten much - one has taken a few dandelion flowers and the other a handful of greens. Both have pooped once, I haven't seen any pee. They really aren't moving much. One has camped out under the heat lamp, the other hanging in her burrow. I can't tell if this lethargy and lack of appetite is a sign that their upper respiratory stuff has gotten worse, or is just normal behavior for these individuals who really want to brumate. I've called about 10 vets and nobody can see them for several more weeks - so I'm turning to you all. Would you continue to keep them warm, even though they aren't eating? Let them brumate? Provide some other kind of care? Thanks for all your kindness for this new caretaker doing her best!

 

[Yvonne G]

I would separate them so each has its own enclosure, make sure the overall temperature is 85°F, day and night (because of the runny noses), and offer food daily. If you ever have a sunny day take them out to wander and graze then back into the house.

 

[mojo_1]

Are uvb/heat lamps ok to use? I thought they were a no for all tortoises.

 

[SinLA]

Ugh! A tortoise rescue that gave you two doesn’t sound like a good rescue. They should not ever be kept in pairs, unless you took them planning on keeping them separately…

how old are they and where in CA are you?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Are uvb/heat lamps ok to use? I thought they were a no for all tortoises.

Tom mentioned somewhere that MVB can be used with care on some full grown adults of the species not prone to pyramiding. Also I'm not sure that OP mentioned all in one lamps.

 

[mojo_1]

Tom mentioned somewhere that MVB can be used with care on some full grown adults of the species not prone to pyramiding. Also I'm not sure that OP mentioned all in one lamps.

Got it, I guess I took it the wrong way.

 

[Tom]

About four weeks ago I adopted two desert tortoises from a tortoise rescue. At the time they had bubbly noses and were not yet hibernating, but very sleepy and slowed down. On the advice of the rescue, I've kept them warm and awake in an indoor enclosure with uvb/heat lamps and some sunny outdoor time when temperatures have been over 70. The rescu suggested the bubbly noses should resolve in a few weeks. The bubbly noses have decreased but congestion is still present. They've gotten warm daily baths, and since I've been keeping them warm I've offered food daily. They haven't eaten much - one has taken a few dandelion flowers and the other a handful of greens. Both have pooped once, I haven't seen any pee. They really aren't moving much. One has camped out under the heat lamp, the other hanging in her burrow. I can't tell if this lethargy and lack of appetite is a sign that their upper respiratory stuff has gotten worse, or is just normal behavior for these individuals who really want to brumate. I've called about 10 vets and nobody can see them for several more weeks - so I'm turning to you all. Would you continue to keep them warm, even though they aren't eating? Let them brumate? Provide some other kind of care? Thanks for all your kindness for this new caretaker doing her best!

First and foremost, they can't be brumated when they are sick. They will have to be kept up and warm and lit. They can't be outside in a burrow in the cold anymore, or they likely won't survive the winter.

Where in CA are you? Different advice for Palm Springs vs. Coastal San Fran.

Also, as has been mentioned, they should never be kept as a pair. They need to be separated ASAP as the stress induced by seeing each other daily is enough to make them sick, keep them sick, and finish them off since they are already sick.

Read this to better understand how to brumate them AND how to NOT brumate them. It explains how to do both options:

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

You are going to need two large indoor enclosure set ups with lots of heat and light. It needs to look and feel like summertime in the CA desert for them. You'll need to soak them every other day or so to keep them well hydrated in the heat.

Sadly, most of the care info given for this species is all wrong and is likely to result in their death. Here is the correct care info:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

And some general info for people new to the forum that will explain a lot and get you caught up to speed:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[gogo0313]

Thank you all for your support! I thought I was adopting one dt that was ready to brumate (indoors, I was prepared for the double box method), and got talked into two (saying they were adult females who lived together all summer and would have no issue continuing to share an outdoor enclosure in the summer - I have a big enclosed yard with natives growing ready for them!). So I've read a lot about brumating indoors and outdoor enclosures, but I'm trying to catch up on indoor winter enclosures! There sure is a lot of conflicting information out there to sort through. I'll double check the heat lamp/uvb issue - I thought the bulbs I got were recommended here, but I may have gotten that wrong.

Especially thank you for the specific information about the temperature to keep them at - knowing I'm going for 85 degress is more helpful than the advice I originally got to "keep them warm." There's no way I can keep a whole room in my house that warm overnight all winter, so I'm now off to create some new separate enclosures for them that are more closed (right now they've just got rodent wire across the top). Anyone have a tip for the % humidity I'm looking for in this particular case?

I'm located in the inner bay area, USDA zone 9 if that helps. The warmest it will likely get during the day during winter is probably 65 - is it still okay to bring them out to sun and graze for a few hours before bringing them back in? What's the coldest sunny day you'd bring them outside?

 

[EppsDynasty]

First and foremost, they can't be brumated when they are sick. They will have to be kept up and warm and lit. They can't be outside in a burrow in the cold anymore, or they likely won't survive the winter.

Where in CA are you? Different advice for Palm Springs vs. Coastal San Fran.

Also, as has been mentioned, they should never be kept as a pair. They need to be separated ASAP as the stress induced by seeing each other daily is enough to make them sick, keep them sick, and finish them off since they are already sick.

Read this to better understand how to brumate them AND how to NOT brumate them. It explains how to do both options:

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

You are going to need two large indoor enclosure set ups with lots of heat and light. It needs to look and feel like summertime in the CA desert for them. You'll need to soak them every other day or so to keep them well hydrated in the heat.

Sadly, most of the care info given for this species is all wrong and is likely to result in their death. Here is the correct care info:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

And some general info for people new to the forum that will explain a lot and get you caught up to speed:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

STOP all direction given by the rescue, you now know it's WRONG. This post by @Tom will give you all the info needed to care PROPERLY for your 2 Desert torts. If you would like to keep em alive it's going to be long winter, as opposed to your thought they were going to brumate.

 

[Tom]

Especially thank you for the specific information about the temperature to keep them at - knowing I'm going for 85 degress is more helpful than the advice I originally got to "keep them warm." There's no way I can keep a whole room in my house that warm overnight all winter, so I'm now off to create some new separate enclosures for them that are more closed (right now they've just got rodent wire across the top). Anyone have a tip for the % humidity I'm looking for in this particular case?

Humidity isn't critical for adults. What size are they? As long as the substrate is lightly damp and they have a hide box, and you are soaking a couple few times per week, you shouldn't need to worry about humidity.

I'm located in the inner bay area, USDA zone 9 if that helps. The warmest it will likely get during the day during winter is probably 65 - is it still okay to bring them out to sun and graze for a few hours before bringing them back in? What's the coldest sunny day you'd bring them outside?

Bay Area as in San Francisco Bay? This species does not do well with cold clammy coastal weather. I'm not saying its impossible, but it is not practical in any way, and it almost never works to keep them healthy near the coast. Your best bet would be to move them inland somewhere warmer and drier. Sorry to give you the bad news like this, but better you find out now than weeks or months from now when the sickness is worse, you've spent hundreds or thousands on vet bills, and one or both are dead.

I used to work in Hermosa Beach and people would come in for help with their DTs due to runny noses, lack of appetite, and lethargy. Most of them were cured with no vet help by simply moving them inland to Whittier and giving them some heat.

If you are determined to give it a go, you will need a large insulated heated box like this one, with heat lamps added to each side like what is in the care sheet I linked above.

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

You can leave them in on cold clammy rainy days, and open the door to let them out on warmer days. You could do something similar in a large shed, but that will be much harder and much more expensive to heat.

 

[SinLA]

To be fair, east of the tunnel in the bay area (ie: Walnut Creek, Concord, etc) has a climate somewhat similar to the San Fernando Valley. I lived in Concord for two years. It definitely gets cooler at night in winter, but its super hot in the summer

 

[gogo0313]

Thanks all for the helpful information. Wanted to update folks. I am indeed two hours and two mountain ranges inland from the San Francisco coast - so while it is rainy in the winter, our summers here are dry and hot.

I've separated the two and fixed up the heat and light and enclosure situation so both are staying warm indoors. They have been getting outside in the sun on warm afternoons and exploring their acre or so of lots of different weeds. They will eat when they're outdoors and about once a week indoors (I offer food daily, mostly picked from their favorites outside, but they often just ignore it) and they get regular soaks. They are clearly happier outside and I'm looking forward for warmer dry seasons when they can be outside all the time. While I didn't expect to keep them awake inside all winter I think I've got them pretty set up.

Ultimately I may need to rehome one to reduce stress on them both, but as they've both been through big changes already I'm hesitant to do it now.