Pancake Tortoise health concern

[hkjustin]

Good morning,

I am seeking some advice on one of my juvenile pancake tortoises. I purchased four cb baby Pancakes last year from a breeder. They were all 2025 hatch, but they were all different sizes ranging from 30 to 80 grams. I have them set up in a PVC enclosure with UVB lighting and a heat lamp tied to a thermostat. I mist the enclosure 2-3 times a day, soak the animals daily and provide a shallow water bowl in the enclosure. Food is a mix of organic spring mix (no spinach), dandelion, escarole, collards, and home grown plants from a Testudo seed mix I purchased online. Substrate is cypress mulch.

I have not named them, so for reference I will call them Pancakes 1-4.
Upon receiving the babies, Pancake 1 was the largest followed by 2 etc. Approximate weight of #1 was 80 grams, #2 was 65, #3 was 50 and #4 was 30.

I noticed a few months ago that #2 was significantly heavier than #1 despite having been smaller at the time of arrival. #2 is approximately 150 grams now and feels very solid when picked up compared to #1. #3 and #4 have at least doubled their weight like #2. #1 is only about 20 - 30 grams heavier than he was on arrival, roughly 6 months ago. About a week ago, I found a large (by comparison to the size of the tortoises) bladder stone in the enclosure after placing the Pancakes back in their enclosure after their evening soak. I made the assumption that the stone came from #1.

I have since moved #1 to their own enclosure. I am soaking them twice per day, once in the morning and again in the evening. I am offering food after both soaks. #1 is eating and defecating, but I am noticing large weight fluctuations. He has been between 98 - 120 grams in the last two weeks. Both the weight fluctuations, the fact that #1 was the largest/heaviest and now is the third heaviest and the bladder stone have me concerned.

What am I doing wrong or what do I need to do different? I would greatly appreciate any suggestions or insight.

Sorry for the long post, I figured more info was better.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I will tag some of our more experienced members here:
@zovick @Tom @Yvonne G

How are the urates of number 1 like? Would you say they are healthy consistency or maybe a bit gritty? Do you feed anything that is high in protein?

 

[hkjustin]

Thank you for the response. The bladder stone was hard and took me a bit of force to crumble with my fingers, I didn't realize what it was at first. Other than that one incident, urates have been small and in a semi liquid state. I usually only see them in the soaking tub after he has defecated.

Protein wise, I have been offering the plants from the Testudo seed mix (purchased from Tortoise Supply) every 2nd to 3rd day to supplement the above mentioned grocery store greens. I also have some alfa alfa growing in the same area as the Testudo mix, but I don't offer much of that to the the Pancakes. I also very occasionally, < once a week, offer Mazuri Tortoise diet. Since noticing the bladder stone and separating number 1, I have been only offering the spring mix and dandelion.

During the winter, I was mixing their greens with dried Mulberry leaves from Kapidolo Farms.

Not sure if any of those could be responsible for the issue, but I appreciate any insight.

Thank you again!

 

[zovick]

Thank you for the response. The bladder stone was hard and took me a bit of force to crumble with my fingers, I didn't realize what it was at first. Other than that one incident, urates have been small and in a semi liquid state. I usually only see them in the soaking tub after he has defecated.

Protein wise, I have been offering the plants from the Testudo seed mix (purchased from Tortoise Supply) every 2nd to 3rd day to supplement the above mentioned grocery store greens. I also have some alfa alfa growing in the same area as the Testudo mix, but I don't offer much of that to the the Pancakes. I also very occasionally, < once a week, offer Mazuri Tortoise diet. Since noticing the bladder stone and separating number 1, I have been only offering the spring mix and dandelion.

During the winter, I was mixing their greens with dried Mulberry leaves from Kapidolo Farms.

Not sure if any of those could be responsible for the issue, but I appreciate any insight.

Thank you again!

I don't think you have done anything wrong. The husbandry sounds fine to me.

I would not be all that concerned with the weight variances. Tortoises' weights can vary quite a bit depending upon how recently they have defecated before being weighed. Occasionally they may also pass harder urates. As long as you keep soaking the tortoise daily, it should not be a problem if the urates are a bit hard from time to time.

I would recommend keeping #1 separate from the other 3 so that it can eat as much as it will eat without competition from the others. Keep food available to it all day every day.

Good luck!

 

[Tom]

Good morning,

I am seeking some advice on one of my juvenile pancake tortoises. I purchased four cb baby Pancakes last year from a breeder. They were all 2025 hatch, but they were all different sizes ranging from 30 to 80 grams. I have them set up in a PVC enclosure with UVB lighting and a heat lamp tied to a thermostat. I mist the enclosure 2-3 times a day, soak the animals daily and provide a shallow water bowl in the enclosure. Food is a mix of organic spring mix (no spinach), dandelion, escarole, collards, and home grown plants from a Testudo seed mix I purchased online. Substrate is cypress mulch.

I have not named them, so for reference I will call them Pancakes 1-4.
Upon receiving the babies, Pancake 1 was the largest followed by 2 etc. Approximate weight of #1 was 80 grams, #2 was 65, #3 was 50 and #4 was 30.

I noticed a few months ago that #2 was significantly heavier than #1 despite having been smaller at the time of arrival. #2 is approximately 150 grams now and feels very solid when picked up compared to #1. #3 and #4 have at least doubled their weight like #2. #1 is only about 20 - 30 grams heavier than he was on arrival, roughly 6 months ago. About a week ago, I found a large (by comparison to the size of the tortoises) bladder stone in the enclosure after placing the Pancakes back in their enclosure after their evening soak. I made the assumption that the stone came from #1.

I have since moved #1 to their own enclosure. I am soaking them twice per day, once in the morning and again in the evening. I am offering food after both soaks. #1 is eating and defecating, but I am noticing large weight fluctuations. He has been between 98 - 120 grams in the last two weeks. Both the weight fluctuations, the fact that #1 was the largest/heaviest and now is the third heaviest and the bladder stone have me concerned.

What am I doing wrong or what do I need to do different? I would greatly appreciate any suggestions or insight.

Sorry for the long post, I figured more info was better.

Everything you are doing sounds great. Because of that, I wonder how they were started at the breeder before you got them. Many breeders don't start babies correctly, and that stone could have formed there and luckily passed months later. Where did you get them and do you know how they were started? Did the breeder use a brooder box after hatching? What was the incubation media? Did the breeder soak daily?

It's best to feed natural weeds and leaves when possible. I'd try to stay away from the grocery store as much as possible.

FYI: Urates are the by-product of protein digestion. Too much protein or not enough hydration, or some combination of both is how they are formed. Dehydration is common at most breeder's places, but not with how you are raising them. I don't see anything absurdly high in protein in the diet you offer either, so that doesn't seem like the problem. Hopefully, all will be fine from this point now that the stone has passed.

 

[hkjustin]

I don't think you have done anything wrong. The husbandry sounds fine to me.

I would not be all that concerned with the weight variances. Tortoises' weights can vary quite a bit depending upon how recently they have defecated before being weighed. Occasionally they may also pass harder urates. As long as you keep soaking the tortoise daily, it should not be a problem if the urates are a bit hard from time to time.

I would recommend keeping #1 separate from the other 3 so that it can eat as much as it will eat without competition from the others. Keep food available to it all day every day.

Good luck!

Thank you for the response.

I do keep food available all day, I change the food out with a fresh plate after the evening soak.

#1 ate almost all of his morning meal today, which came as a huge relief.

I will keep them separated and continue with extra soaks and monitoring his progress.

Thank you again for your suggestions.

 

[hkjustin]

Everything you are doing sounds great. Because of that, I wonder how they were started at the breeder before you got them. Many breeders don't start babies correctly, and that stone could have formed there and luckily passed months later. Where did you get them and do you know how they were started? Did the breeder use a brooder box after hatching? What was the incubation media? Did the breeder soak daily?

It's best to feed natural weeds and leaves when possible. I'd try to stay away from the grocery store as much as possible.

FYI: Urates are the by-product of protein digestion. Too much protein or not enough hydration, or some combination of both is how they are formed. Dehydration is common at most breeder's places, but not with how you are raising them. I don't see anything absurdly high in protein in the diet you offer either, so that doesn't seem like the problem. Hopefully, all will be fine from this point now that the stone has passed.

Thank you for your reply.

I know that the breeder was soaking daily and keeping them on the humid side. I didn't ask more detailed questions about incubation and post hatching setup, so that was my mistake, but the breeder seems like they are very competent and they were very helpful with recommendations that I used for the setup.

The other three have had absolutely no issues. Interestingly, #1 has some slight shell pyramiding while #2 has a perfectly smooth shell. Possible that #1 doesn't hydrate as well as the others and chooses dryer parts of the cage setup to hide. Not sure if that would directly impact the shell, but I have considered it.

Thanks again!