Pardalis pardalis
- Thread starter Gelato
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Looks like a Babcock to me.
Hi, and welcome to the Forum! Very pretty little baby you have there.
Hi, and welcome to the Forum! Very pretty little baby you have there.
There are no recognized subspecies any more.
I cannot tell that tortoises origin just by looking.
Where are you?
I cannot tell that tortoises origin just by looking.
Where are you?
Thanks for replying! Yesss he is pretty, the seller said it's a pardalis and I am not so sure
It does not look like the pure South African babies that I have raised. I would have to say that it is either a mix, or it is from a location that I am not familiar with. It does not resemble what I used to call Gpp and now call South African leopards. I don't know what all is available in Hong Kong.
The last study I saw listed 11 "clades", and no subspecies, throughout the very large range of the leopard tortoise. Here in the US, people have been mixing at least some the different "clades" for decades, and honestly, we don't usually know what we have over here. The rare exception is the few people producing true South African leopards, like the ones I got a few years ago and am raising to adulthood now. I only know of one person who has pure location specific leopards. He has four varieties and none of them resemble the one in your pic, but there are at least 7 more varieties that I have not seen as babies. It is possible that two or more of his varieties from known different locales also represent the same clade, as defined by the scientists who did the work.
So the tortoise in your pictures might be a mix like what we have here, or it could be a pure form of one of the 11 clades that I have not seen and am not familiar with. It is not a "regular" babcocki like what we sometimes see here, and it is not a pardalis pardalis of the type we usually see here either. Importation to the US was banned in the late 90's, so we are limited to what was already here. It is certainly possible that you have different varieties available over there.
@Neal or @Will might have more insight.
The last study I saw listed 11 "clades", and no subspecies, throughout the very large range of the leopard tortoise. Here in the US, people have been mixing at least some the different "clades" for decades, and honestly, we don't usually know what we have over here. The rare exception is the few people producing true South African leopards, like the ones I got a few years ago and am raising to adulthood now. I only know of one person who has pure location specific leopards. He has four varieties and none of them resemble the one in your pic, but there are at least 7 more varieties that I have not seen as babies. It is possible that two or more of his varieties from known different locales also represent the same clade, as defined by the scientists who did the work.
So the tortoise in your pictures might be a mix like what we have here, or it could be a pure form of one of the 11 clades that I have not seen and am not familiar with. It is not a "regular" babcocki like what we sometimes see here, and it is not a pardalis pardalis of the type we usually see here either. Importation to the US was banned in the late 90's, so we are limited to what was already here. It is certainly possible that you have different varieties available over there.
@Neal or @Will might have more insight.
No, the leopards from South Africa have more speckles on their skin.
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That is at least one of the things that make me angry with the results of papers that describe all those geographical phenotypical variants. No natural history review or images of the 'types'. In that case I can also see their paper would have been a thick book. I don't know the different neonates based on images. The common wisdom on leopards is freckled skin, two or more 'dots' or more on half the scutes, and some plastron marking that indicate a pure South African. However if you look at a map, South Africa is a huge place.
If I recall correctly the 'true' south African leopards are more on the westernmost part of Western Cape Province, maybe as far east as Addo National Park, but then isolated from the Karoo by several mountain ranges to the north from the coast. But this is parsed together by anecdotal bits and pieces. I have seen leopards in Beaufort West (north part of the southern Karoo) and they were all pretty darn big with age such that most marking were obscured. A few young ones found and those images are here on TFO somewhere??
I think instead of getting too caught up in the cryptic nature of these kinds of things you should always consider if you like how the tortoise in your home or backyard looks like - and if you do, who cares about this set of concerns. There are many rational reasons to care, but if you have a pet and not interested in breeding some specific line, why bother to care? Their husbandry may be somewhat different, but then that is true for many species of tortoise that have such a huge range. RedFoots, come to mind of that POV.
If I recall correctly the 'true' south African leopards are more on the westernmost part of Western Cape Province, maybe as far east as Addo National Park, but then isolated from the Karoo by several mountain ranges to the north from the coast. But this is parsed together by anecdotal bits and pieces. I have seen leopards in Beaufort West (north part of the southern Karoo) and they were all pretty darn big with age such that most marking were obscured. A few young ones found and those images are here on TFO somewhere??
I think instead of getting too caught up in the cryptic nature of these kinds of things you should always consider if you like how the tortoise in your home or backyard looks like - and if you do, who cares about this set of concerns. There are many rational reasons to care, but if you have a pet and not interested in breeding some specific line, why bother to care? Their husbandry may be somewhat different, but then that is true for many species of tortoise that have such a huge range. RedFoots, come to mind of that POV.
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I am not aware of anyone that has enough knowledge to ID the locality of a leopard tortoise just by looking at it, so I am afraid you are out of luck.
I do make an attempt to promulgate the two variants we have in the USA; at least it is reasonably assumed we have two variants, so I think this type of discussion is important even though the topic is extremely complex. I wouldn't mind referring to them as type I or type II since references to geographical origin seem may be too broad in assigning one type as East African and the other as South African.
Since you are not in the United States, none of this really matters.
It's a pretty leopard tortoise no matter where it came from!
I do make an attempt to promulgate the two variants we have in the USA; at least it is reasonably assumed we have two variants, so I think this type of discussion is important even though the topic is extremely complex. I wouldn't mind referring to them as type I or type II since references to geographical origin seem may be too broad in assigning one type as East African and the other as South African.
Since you are not in the United States, none of this really matters.
It's a pretty leopard tortoise no matter where it came from!
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I couldn't agree more with what was previously stated from the others. The only characteristics that suggest similarity with the "south african" variety from the USA is the double dot pattern on the vertebral scutes. Based on pictures I've seen online of tortoises from variuos areas on the "northern end" of what's considered "South Africa" some tortoises exhibit double dot scute patterns occasionaly but don't grow to the same size as the true South African (extreme south africa) variety found in the USA. It's got a completely different shell shape/head shape/skin tone/etc. from my group of PPs.
Regardless it's a lovely leopard and I hope we get to see updates as it grows. Best of luck
Regardless it's a lovely leopard and I hope we get to see updates as it grows. Best of luck
