Pet stores

tortoishell · Sep 23, 2016

I have done a lot of research and still don't know what to think. Are pet stores abusive towards their animals? I've also read that it sells either harmful things or the minimum for survival. I began to believe the criticism when they persuaded me that russians are easy to take care of.
I don't regret getting my tortoise at all, but they told me that a 55 gallon terrarium is big enough. First of all, is it? He does have a greenhouse but it's pretty cold on some days.
So what is the actual story?

Anyfoot · Sep 23, 2016

tortoishell said:
I have done a lot of research and still don't know what to think. Are pet stores abusive towards their animals? I've also read that it sells either harmful things or the minimum for survival. I began to believe the criticism when they persuaded me that russians are easy to take care of.
I don't regret getting my tortoise at all, but they told me that a 55 gallon terrarium is big enough. First of all, is it? He does have a greenhouse but it's pretty cold on some days.
So what is the actual story?

The pet shops I've been to are all just a business. Cash flow is priority. They will say whatever it takes to sell you anything. If they said " you need a 4x8ft enclosure for 1 Tortoise" to all their cliantle they would probably just have cut the potential customer base in half.
I used to buy online from an exotics place, one day whilst we were out I decided to drop in and have a look. Disgusting conditions and no knowledge, the website looks really professional.
I went into a pet shop about 12months ago and to my surprise they had a raccoon a fox and some meerkats for sale looking very sad.

I found a pet shop near us that don't deal in live animals. We shop there now.

naturalman91 · Sep 24, 2016

i agree with anyfoot it's all a cash flow and no realistically it's not big enough for your russian. pet shops around me (Oregon) keep they're animals in pretty bad conditions to small of cages over crowded etc

everything except my CHE and UVB comes from a hardware store even my gauges. UVB is ordered online and my CHE was pickup in petco for 15 dollars for 150w i got 2 a few years ago and haven't needed to replace them yet.

dmmj · Sep 24, 2016

for pet stores the longer they keep an animal the less money they make so they want to sell them as quickly as possible and they will tell you pairs are always better because they get lonely that way they get rid of two animals at once instead of just one. I don't think it's really abuse it's mainly ignorance in my opinion. breeders are almost always a better choice to buy from because they tend to care more for the animals they want to find good homes not just any home

Yvonne G · Sep 24, 2016

Bear in mind that all stores are in business to make a profit. It would be nice if they actually handed out the correct info for tortoise-keeping, but that really doesn't fit into the make a profit scheme.

There was a law passed a couple years ago that any store that sells live animals has to provide the buyer with a care sheet. Even after the law went into effect, most stores didn't comply.

Your best bet for getting the correct info, is joining a forum, just like you have, right here. We have the latest info on tortoise-keeping. And don't forget...when searching the web, most sites aren't updated. They put out their info, then never go back and correct or update it, so much of what you read on the 'net is old and outdated.

klawran1 · Sep 24, 2016

I used to work at a pet store. The more animals that could be fit into a small space, the more profit. The smaller the enclosure, the less space it took up. It was all about profit. The products they sold that were dangerous (like the coil UVB) was just one more thing to put on the shelves to get money. We were told what to push and had a quota. Those who sold the most of that item got a reward. I will say that most of the animal neglect wasn't on purpose, but just lack of knowledge. A lot of those in pet care only had what the store told them to go by. I helped out with the reptiles as best I could, but it wasn't my department so there was only so much I could do to not over step my boundaries and make the care giver run to the boss. At least when I worked there, the animals had the best care a chain pet store could provide and customers were given correct information. Stores have so much potential to be great if only it wasn't a money game, but an animal game. Like Anyfoot, I prefer to shop online or at store that don't deal in animals. Some will still sell the coil bulbs and things like that, but again, it's all about the profit, not the animals. It's rare to find a store who does otherwise.

tortoishell · Sep 24, 2016

Are coil bulbs bad?
I'm pretty sure I have one so...

klawran1 · Sep 24, 2016

They have been reported to cause blindness. Check out Tom's post here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/coil-type-uv-bulbs-dont-use-them.35247/

dmmj · Sep 24, 2016

we can't say coil bulbs are 100% bad but a lot of keepers have problems with their tortoises and their eyes so most choose not to use them.

tortoishell · Sep 24, 2016

Oh
My tortoise seems to be fine; his eyes are clear, and he's alert. There is no discharge or anything. So is there a reason i need to get a different lamp?

Tom · Sep 24, 2016

tortoishell said:
Oh
My tortoise seems to be fine; his eyes are clear, and he's alert. There is no discharge or anything. So is there a reason i need to get a different lamp?

Not everyone who uses these bulbs experiences a problem with eye injury. The issue is that there has been no scientific study done on the bulbs that DO cause injury, so we can't even say exactly what the problem is. Just that we sometimes see a problem. There are several theories, but no proof. Bottom line is there are several safer methods to use that do not cause these problems.

Second issue with these bulbs is that they are not a very effective UV source. Put a UV meter under one and you'll see what I mean. THere are other better products to use to provide indoor UV for your tortoise if you need it.

I feel both of these are reasons to get a different lamp.

Tom · Sep 24, 2016

tortoishell said:
I have done a lot of research and still don't know what to think. Are pet stores abusive towards their animals? I've also read that it sells either harmful things or the minimum for survival. I began to believe the criticism when they persuaded me that russians are easy to take care of.
I don't regret getting my tortoise at all, but they told me that a 55 gallon terrarium is big enough. First of all, is it? He does have a greenhouse but it's pretty cold on some days.
So what is the actual story?

I would not call them intentionally abusive. I'd call them ignorant, but usually with good intentions.

Russians are "relatively" easy to care for once they are set up correctly.

A 55 gallon tank would be good for a hatchling, but a 4" or larger tortoise will need something MUCH bigger. I recommend 4x8' as a minimum for indoor housing and large outdoors.

You mentioned that you've done a lot of research. The problem with research is that it depends entirely on what you read. Most of the tortoise care info found on the internet and in books is old, outdated and based on incorrect assumptions. Most vets have it all wrong too. Even some of the long time breeders haven't kept up with new and improved methods and info.

Here is what I recommend:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

I'll bet you'll find quite a few differences between this and your previous research, but my babies sure are healthy, in comparison to most of what I see out there in the world.

klawran1 · Sep 25, 2016

What Tom said about vets not knowing sometimes is true. About 8 years ago, my Russian was a tiny hatching. He had bubbles coming out of his nose. From being on forums like these, I knew he had an upper respiratory infection. I took a picture of the bubbles, cleaned him up and kept him warm while waiting for a vet appointment. I was very lucky there was a herp vet where I lived at the time. Believe it or not, the vet had never heard of this, nor had he dealt with hatchlings before. Because I was able to.tell him what was wrong, he was able to give me some medicine in a dropper. A few years previous to this, I lost a Russian to the same infection . (My husbandry has greatly changed since then.) Even with tortoises being popular pets, there is still a lot to learn and a lot of ignorance. You came to the right place to get up to date information from people who actually have hands on experience.

TerraTheRussian · Sep 30, 2016

There is so much to know. I had my Russian in a 55 gallon, but now she rules a nice 4'x8' enclosure. I also only at first had a UVA bulb, so I bought a UVB coil bulb. But now I'm reading they aren't best.

Tom · Sep 30, 2016

TerraTheRussian said:
...so I bought a UVB coil bulb. But now I'm reading they aren't best.

Some of them do no harm. Others burn tortoise eyes. No way to know which one you've got until the damage is done. Better to use something else. In addition to this fact, they are not effective UV sources anyway.

saginawhxc · Sep 30, 2016

The pet store near me has a never ending supply of Russians coming in and going out. While they have one it is always kept in a 10 gallon tank with a hide, food dish, a small water dish, and a small pile of hay. All of that leaves zero room to walk.

TerraTheRussian · Oct 2, 2016

Yeah Petco said they wee not a hearty batch of tortoises. Fortunately they gave me another frim a different batch. I ordered a nice UVA/UVB bulb (non coil) yesterday. I want to make sure I do everything right for my little tortoise.

crimson_lotus · Oct 2, 2016

My turtle was free at a local Pet Smart and was vomiting blood in his enclosure when I decided to take him home and to the vet. He had a huge tapeworm in him, another unidentified parasitic worm, his shell was burnt from being too close to the light, he was with an African Sideneck that was 4x the size of him and attacking him constantly, he had a bacterial infection in his lung caused by aspirating dirty water, and he was lacking vitamin A as his bottom beak fell off and some of his nails as well. Oh and he had a huge puss filled wound on his head. The tank he was in had one inch of water and he is a map turtle, he should be able to swim.

I don't think all pet stores are horrible, but that one particularly was. They had a veterinary clinic built directly next to the store, so there was really no excuse. I was also asked to sign a piece of paper basically saying they are not responsible for any sickness or injuries that may have even come with the turtle.

Tortoisefanatic88 · Oct 3, 2016

I went to a pet store yesterday and couldn't believe what I seen. They had tortoises and box turtles all living together. The tortoises were all badly pyramided. I don't know where they got them from, but I felt so bad for them

I went towards the back of the store and they had a big sulcata. I couldn't believe it. Kept on a hard floor with a food and water bowl.