Please I need everyones opinions and advice

[Candy]

I posted a thread not too long ago on a Russian tortoise that a teacher from my school has. Now there's more questions and hopefully you can help answer them for us. I'm not used to Russian's or Hermann's, but I think these are general tortoise questions and I'd like everyone's opinions please.

First the teacher was keeping the Russian and Hermann together because she didn't know any different. They were together for quite some time, but recently she had noticed that the Russian seemed to be getting bullied by the Hermann's. I posted pictures to make sure of what I suspected (that they were both males) and you guys said that they were so I told her that this is probably why he's getting picked on and that she should separate them so she did. I'm also thinking that this time of year might be mating season for both of them and this is why it is getting worse. When Danny saw the picture that I posted on my other thread he suggested that it had had some shell rot and that she should put some Vaseline on the shell which she has been doing. I talked with her today and she says that the Russian doesn't eat as much now that he's separated from the Hermann's and that this past weekend she tried putting them together again and the Russian ran for the food and was having no trouble eating, but then the Hermann's started bullying so she separated them and now the Russian is back to not eating as much and she is worried. She wants to know what she can do because she thinks that he is lonely without the Hermann's. I suggested a female for him, but I wonder if another male would get along with him if it's another Russian. What do you think? Here's a couple of pictures of both of them please let me know if you too think that they are both males and what your suggestions would be to make this little one happy again. She did mention that he hides all of the time now in his hide and that she does have a heat emitter on him.

 

[Jacqui]

Can you refresh memories with HOW he was being bullied? Was it hard core like biting and hard knocks or what?

 

[GBtortoises]

Yes, they're both males, no the Russian isn't lonely. Getting another male definitely is not a good solution! It is just going to cause more aggression. When the male Russian is removed from his original enclosure that has the male Hermann's in it is the Russian being kept in a set up very close to the one he was removed from? Are the temperatures nearly the same, lighting the same, layout the same, hides the same? The reason that the Russian may not be eating could be because of the recent move to unfamiliar surroundings and not being given enough time to adjust and acclimate. This will especially hold true if the new environment is not much like the former one. Moving him back and forth to re-face the aggression isn't helping either.
The aggression or "bullying" that is taking place is very common when two male Testudo are kept in close quarters without adequate room to escape the aggression or hide from it. It's very common among same species but not unusual between two different species either. Especially given the fact that it is currently peak breeding season for Testudo through May and June. The aggression is even stronger then. As far as putting a female in with either one of them she will then be the focus of the same or even stronger aggression and may be constantly pursued to the point where she does nothing but try to hide in a corner. Females in this situation can become physically injured and highly stressed. If a female is a consideration it would actually be better to add two or more females in order to take the male's focus off just one female, giving each a break from the male's advances once in awhile. The most important thing if considering adding females with a male is space-lots of it. The more room available the better for the well being of the females. Add to that space multiple hiding areas and visual barriers.

The best solution in this case would be to keep the two males in seperate enclosures and out of sight of each other. The Russian needs to be given enough time to become acclimated in it's new surroundings, kept well hydrated and not handled or moved around a lot for a few days, or a week or so. As long as it is otherwise healthy it will probably become more active and begin eating better once it is comfortable in it's new enclosure.

If it were me I would move the aggressive tortoise to the new enclosure rather than the already stressed, submissive tortoise.

 

[Candy]

Jacqui the Hermann's tortoise has been biting the Russian tortoise so she separated them. Now she tells me even if she holds the Hermann's near him he tries to get to the Russian. Not a good match.

GB thanks for posting all of that information it certainly helps me because I was trying to tell her to get a female, but now I'm thinking not at this time. She did change the enclosure for the Russian. It's a Rubbermaid tub so it's probably better then what she had him in before which was an aquarium with no border to block them from seeing out. She didn't have a hide in the aquarium, but she does have one now in the Rubbermaid enclosure. She takes the Russian outside for some sun and she says that he enjoys that. I never thought that he has to get used to his new place and that it might take a while for that to happen.

 

[Tom]

If it were me I would move the aggressive tortoise to the new enclosure rather than the already stressed, submissive tortoise.

GB always gives great advice. I can almost never find anything to disagree with. I usually sit here and nod my head yes as I read his posts.

I just wanted to emphasize that I really believe the above statement is the way to go. Its a weird phenomenon that most people want to move and further stress the already stressed one. This happens in nearly all animals. Fish, rodents other reptiles.

I'd also guess that he eats in the old enclosure, not because of the hostile company, but because of the familiar surroundings.

 

[Candy]

Thanks Tom I never thought of him eating because it's his regular home. I will definitely mention this to her on Monday. Yes I also agree that GB gives very good advice on tortoises.

 

[egyptiandan]

Does she have a basking spot for the Russian Candy?

I agree with Gary too Though the eating when put back with the Hermanns is probably competition for the food between the 2 of them. When a tortoise is alone it doesn't have to compete for the available food, so won't be as keen to eat everything thats available all at once.

Danny

 

[Candy]

Thank you Danny. I asked her and she said that she had a heat emitter so I figured that was the basking spot for him. She now has him at home with her and her husband. I gave her the caresheet that you had told me about the last time. She says that her husband takes him outside quite a bit and that he likes that. I was just hoping that it would be eating more since I think it is too light for a Russian. When I pick up Ruby as young as she is she feels like a rock, but this one feels too light to me. I figure that's because she was keeping them together and that the other one was picking on this one and he was probably stressed out. Do you think he will start eating better when he gets used to being by himself? Should she soak him also since you said that he had some old shellrot? I told her to soak him. I also don't know what kind of substrate to put him on since she is putting vaseline on his shell. I told her maybe some paper towels for a while until she sees inprovement. Is this right?

 

[egyptiandan]

Yes paper towels are fine but shredded aspen would be better It's easy to clean off when he does dig into it. He will get used to eating alone. You can try soaking, but Russians aren't good at drinking while soaking.

Danny