Ploughshare torts

[RedfootsRule]

I'm not sure what that has to do with plougshare torts, but tell me how torturously butchering another living creature, WHILE ALIVE, differentiates in anyway from being sadistic? It doesn't.
If they rather them not suffer, they would take one clean whack to the head, and all would be over. Why don't they?

But this is straying further and further from the OP. Bye .

 

[Radiated]

Woww Yellow Turtle, you guys in Indonesia arent better. Plus people in china dont suck out the livers of ploughshare tortoises. They sell the tortoise alive because it is worth a lot.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

Woww Yellow Turtle, you guys in Indonesia arent better. Plus people in china dont suck out the livers of ploughshare tortoises. They sell the tortoise alive because it is worth a lot.

Oh yes, Indonesian eats all kind of turtles and torts. We are the worst

Gawd Radiated, you should read the whole thread and not piece by piece, then you will understand more what I'm writing about. That sentence just means for fooling around...

 

[emystiong]

Most poor Indonesian eat what they can catch ( eat because they are POOR )

Those in China eat chelonian because they are RICH or richer than most !!


Cheers

---

Just like some eat caviar ( CITES controlled item ? ) to show status ( rich , richer or richest )
How different is that ? Some states in USA still harvest and consume Alligator snapper ( perhaps is the way the animal is dispatched before dismembering )

And NO, Chinese don't suck the liver of tortoise or turtle or terrapin ( maybe it's the Japanese ) they mostly stew or make soup out of chelonian only !!

Cheers

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

That was my point, to a great extent. No one can point a finger at another without being a hypocrite to some extent. There are people in the US that eat all manner of wildlife too. I guess what seems to be the "push" is how the animal is treated in the passage from being alive to dead. But again, most of us eat fish, and all fish have a horrible death. So, what to do? Just try not to be so 'better" than others. I have eaten meat all my life. I will continue to.

As for yniphora and their conservation. It is my point of view based on one citation in this thread, that the illegal held and bred animals are indeed part of the mega population that encompasses all individuals captive and wild. The "push" again is that no more should be pulled from the wild for any reason, and with that I agree.

There are processes at work in a wild population that can not be replicated in a captive population. To have them all in captivity would eliminate those vital processess, and that is not acceptable. In the intervening time, it would seem that poachers are for the most part not in the same frame of mind, and are driven by wanting better for themselves economically, and those tortoises seem to be a reasonable path for them and their sensibilities, tortoises just being a means, not a topic/concern in itself.

So why do they poach, aside from money in their pocket - because we all have put the value on the animal, by buying them.

At one time Jamaican boas were hotly poached and traded. A breeder in Canada bred them to such great numbers the price fell, and their desirability dropped, that was indeed the purpose of that breeding program. The problem in this sense as I see it, is that tortoises breed slower, and people have egos that tend to make them prideful for having the rare thing.

Imagine the sh*t storm thread here if radiated were bred to such great numbers that they were in PetCo/PetSmart alongside russians discounted to $50, when the 'stock' had been on the shelf to long.

Will

 

[RedfootsRule]

Which leads me to another opinion of mine...Why on EARTH are all of these people buying them? Or any WC animals, for that purpose. As you say, when you buy them, you place value on them, and increase the poaching of them....But, unfortunately, we have to many in the world with such ignorance to believe that somehow, someway, they're buying WC animals does not affect them, when it in every sense does. (Even worse, all of those that will call themselves "herpetologists" when they're living is funding the removal of animals from the wild...)

I eat meat to, but me being me, I eat the meat that was intended to eat...beef...chicken...sometimes fish (the right kind). Tortoises, snakes, shrimp...None if it is meant to be eaten, but of course most countries (and people) do not understand this. But cows and chickens don't have a crisis do they? So I will continue to eat them....

Yniphora, in my opinion, can't be taken from the wild anymore. Not a single more individual should be taken. The ones in captivity already should be sent to breeding operations (don't ask me how to get everyone to give up theirs). The only way to save them is to protect them in the wild....A.k.a, don't be so easy on poachers; they break the law, they kill, they to shall be killed. If the penalty was death, I can guarantee you poaching would lessen to a great extent...If it was actually ENFORCED strongly, then it would virtually disappear. Now, of course, these laws would need some form of military to enforce...Again, don't ask me how to do that either.

Just my opinion and nothing more....

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

RedFootsRule "The only way to save them is to protect them in the wild....A.k.a, don't be so easy on poachers; they break the law, they kill, they to shall be killed. If the penalty was death, I can guarantee you poaching would lessen to a great extent...If it was actually ENFORCED strongly, then it would virtually disappear. Now, of course, these laws would need some form of military to enforce...Again, don't ask me how to do that either."

That's the deal, it makes the candy sweeter, the more forbidden it is. Just because that is not your or my value does not mean it does not exist as a value that many people have. So this would drive price up, not down. It sucks, but that is what has happened in other applications of stronger law enforcement for rare and collectable things. It drives the demand, not sedate it.

Will

 

[emystiong]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ag...over-part-of-Madagascar-to-grow-biofuels.html


Have a read !!

Are they doomed in the wild ?
And thats few years ago .Or deal did was not signed ? Any update ?

Cheers

 

[RedfootsRule]

That's the deal, it makes the candy sweeter, the more forbidden it is. Just because that is not your or my value does not mean it does not exist as a value that many people have. So this would drive price up, not down. It sucks, but that is what has happened in other applications of stronger law enforcement for rare and collectable things. It drives the demand, not sedate it.

Will

Oh, I agree completely. Heres the thing: thats why I said enforced. If the laws were enforced strongly, and the laws themselves were something nobody wanted to break...Then the value would matter little.

 

[tortoises101]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/ag...over-part-of-Madagascar-to-grow-biofuels.html


Have a read !!

Are they doomed in the wild ?
And thats few years ago .Or deal did was not signed ? Any update ?

Cheers

That was in 2008. The president Marc Ravalomanana orignally accepted the deal, bringing uproars from the Malagasy. The signing of the deal was one of the factors contributing to the coup d'etat in 2009, when Andry Rajoelina rose to power and cancelled the deal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7952628.stm

 

[emystiong]

Thanks for the update .
Cheers

 

[wildak]

Which leads me to another opinion of mine...Why on EARTH are all of these people buying them? Or any WC animals, for that purpose. As you say, when you buy them, you place value on them, and increase the poaching of them....But, unfortunately, we have to many in the world with such ignorance to believe that somehow, someway, they're buying WC animals does not affect them, when it in every sense does. (Even worse, all of those that will call themselves "herpetologists" when they're living is funding the removal of animals from the wild...)

I eat meat to, but me being me, I eat the meat that was intended to eat...beef...chicken...sometimes fish (the right kind). Tortoises, snakes, shrimp...None if it is meant to be eaten, but of course most countries (and people) do not understand this. But cows and chickens don't have a crisis do they? So I will continue to eat them....

Yniphora, in my opinion, can't be taken from the wild anymore. Not a single more individual should be taken. The ones in captivity already should be sent to breeding operations (don't ask me how to get everyone to give up theirs). The only way to save them is to protect them in the wild....A.k.a, don't be so easy on poachers; they break the law, they kill, they to shall be killed. If the penalty was death, I can guarantee you poaching would lessen to a great extent...If it was actually ENFORCED strongly, then it would virtually disappear. Now, of course, these laws would need some form of military to enforce...Again, don't ask me how to do that either.

Well it's not that cut and dry so to speak. While some are collecting from the wild in large numbers to sell on the markets other are either selling a single animal to buy food for their family or butching whatever they come across no matter what it is to feed their families. Anyone that has spent any time in countries like these especially arid regions in years of drought would have a better understanding. I personally would shoot the last Panda on Earth to keep my family from starving to death.

A better means would be to help villages find a way to make income to feed their families. it's far from an easy process but has better success that other methods including a death sentence. The Snow Leopard Foundation gets villages to make wool clothing and other crafts I believe which they purchase and sell world wide to raise money for Snow leopards with the understanding if A SINGLE leopard is killed by that village they WILL NOT buy a single thing from them again. This has worked great the past several years as far as I have heard and I believe TSA and others are trying to implement these or similar tactics (like building schools) in Madigascar and other areas. Give them an alternative rather than say don't do that or we will shoot you. Starve to death or get shot ? This way they can at least feed their families and get an education.

As far as methods in butchering, what should or should not be considered food and treatment of animals every culture is different. It's all in how and where you were raised, not what is and is not evil. I'm certain they don't feel they're doing anything wrong (If they were laughing while they did it then I would say possibly evil ). I was raised hunting and trapping, some were raised in slaughter houses while others are blind to how the food got to their plate. I live in Alaska where Natives still eat Whale, Seals, Sea Lion and Walrus and they have for thousands of years. There's lots of people here that have never seen a cow or chicken and never will. The Worlds a big place and things are very very different in distant lands.

I do agree with captive breeding programs and having them in different countries is a very good idea. I also believe in private individuals being able to contribute as private collectors are often the first to hatch some species, and private collectors/breeders often have the funding, time and dedication to put towards a species. While Zoos are great but they too have issues, I think the biggest issue would be keepers, different people doing different things, people getting hired and fired and protocols changing. They feed clean and move on to the next animal. I worked at a zoo for 10 years so I know how that goes. Some species I can see requiring special permits other than a cbw, maybe a annual fda inspection of facilities and manditory studbook microchipping and founder animal exchanges. There's a lot of great private breeders out there that can be utilized.

Well if Radiateds are expected to be extinct in the wild in 10 years I'm sure Ploughshare will be. I think the idea of keeping a breeding population so that even 300 years from now maybe they could be put back into the wild is great but we have a long road ahead. That's saying we colonize other planets, find other sources of fuel, better ways to grow food, turn urban areas back into forests/natural habitat, stop people from eating them, using them for medicine, decoration, pet trade and manage to keep out all non native species that cause any kind of threat ( which would be all ).

 

[tortadise]

Very good points wildak. I like to loom at the Galapagos island and there efforts in breeding and stabilizing the rare species of espanza island tort. Which few years ago only had 22 specimens world wild. They were entirely removed from the espanza isle and placed in captive care. All the while scientific proprogations were under way and now the natives have a better crop system. Less imports, less uprising and damage done to the tortoise species for food. The espanza species is now more than 300 and placed back on espanza and pinta island over the past decade. Change can be made on radiata and yniphoria. We just need to help in other ways than only the animals. Teaching, and developement of the malagasy people would be a good start.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Wildak, you took one of those rational thought process pills, no fair. hahahahahahhahhhahaahahhahaha. Good narration, I had thought I expressed these points of view clearly myself, but in reading your narrative, I would have to say, you did a great job, and I liked reading it, more than trying to write these ideas myself. Will

 

[paludarium]

Here is an excellent article to read:
Wasted efforts: why captivity is not the best way to conserve species

 

[emystiong]

Here is an excellent article to read:
Wasted efforts: why captivity is not the best way to conserve species

Interesting to read !! So what can be done ? Beside the assurance colony i mean .

Cheers

 

[radiatata]

Interesting read but to me in situ conversation alone is risky if it was the only assurance of a species especially endemic to a single locale like radiata and yniphora because should the local government fail to maintain the effort under any circumstances or the in situ site is hit by catastrophic disaster, the survival of the remaining population may not be guaranteed. Say if a civil war broke out in Madagascar, I don't think any foreign country will intervene just for tortoises.

To me, in situ and ex situ efforts are both equally important. However not both of them can work well at the same time but the best effort must be attempted in both. This is why assurance colonies are established around the world. When the earthquake hit the province where the panda protection center is in china, it posed grave danger to the panda species and one can easily imagine the worst outcome of that event if the panda is not establish anywhere else and the disaster wiped out all of the panda there.