Possible Pyramiding?

[sbuh04]

Hi everyone. I just brought home my baby tortoise around 2 weeks ago. Her shell looked smooth when I got her but now when I run my finger over it, it feels bumpy. I’m worried she is starting to pyramid. She is in a 40”x18” plastic tote with an open top (but I close it at night). She has an Arcadia 12% UVB light and an Arcadia halogen light (but now looking at this care guide I should maybe change it?). Warm side is around 90°f but I think her cool side may be too cold. It’s 70°f. Humidity is 60% during the day and 80-90% at night. Her substrate is moist and she eats around a shell side amount of food a day. She gets *almost* daily 10-40 minute soaks. I have seen her in her water bowl and drinking from it. Her urates are egg white consistency and her poops seem normal. This is my first tortoise but I own many other reptiles. Can someone tell me if her shell looks ok? Or suggestions on how to fix it? Thank you for your help.

- a concerned and anxious first time tortoise mom.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello and welcome to the forum!

That is indeed the start of pyramiding, but don’t fret, I can tell tell from your description what’s happening and how to fix it, your a first time tort mom so don’t feel bad about this, it happens, she’s still a little baby so once fixed and she grows, you’ll hardly notice it.

First port of call, she needs a closed chamber 24/7 to maintain humidity in the 80’s, high humidity is a key factor for smoother growth in babies, an open top doesn’t keep the level where it needs to be.

The halogen light will also be contributing, that needs switching to an incandescent floodlight, Arcadia do them, 75w does the trick for most, your aiming for a basking temperature of 95-100f directly under that bulb, no higher, no lower. The rest of the enclosure ranging 75-80 during the day. 70 is a fine night temp.

If the floodlight alone isn’t heating your enclosure enough, you’ll need a CHE(ceramic heat emitter) they’re a none light emitting heat bulb that makes up ambient and night heat, this will need running on a thermostat 24/7.

Essentially correct lighting and higher humidity is going to rectify this.

I think you’ll find this thread below super useful to read through, I cover correct equipment, levels, appropriately maintaining humidity, there’s lots of visual examples for everything and a good diet link to check out

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

This one is also really good to familiarise with, it will help you avoid the wrong bulbs, materials, housing etc

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Give them both a read and please come back with any further questions you have!

 

[Tom]

Your temperatures sound good for a temperate species, but let the tortoise's behavior guide you. Does the tortoise spend a lot of time each day basking? If yes, then your enclosure is too cool and you need to warm up the ambient temperature.

Halogens cause pyramiding. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Halogens desiccate the carapace. Swap to a regular incandescent flood bulb for basking.

You also need to get humidity up higher and add a humid hide box. Close in as much of the top as you can to keep humidity up.

Food has nothing to do with pyramiding. Feed your tortoise as much as it wants to eat of the right foods. Favor weeds, leaves, and flowers when possible.

Urate production is an indicator that your tortoise is not well hydrated enough. Soak more and for longer. I'd soak every day for at least two weeks to eliminate urate production and clear what is already there. Then, you can start skipping soak days now and then again.

Questions are welcome.

 

[sbuh04]

Hello and welcome to the forum!

That is indeed the start of pyramiding, but don’t fret, I can tell tell from your description what’s happening and how to fix it, your a first time tort mom so don’t feel bad about this, it happens, she’s still a little baby so once fixed and she grows, you’ll hardly notice it.

First port of call, she needs a closed chamber 24/7 to maintain humidity in the 80’s, high humidity is a key factor for smoother growth in babies, an open top doesn’t keep the level where it needs to be.

The halogen light will also be contributing, that needs switching to an incandescent floodlight, Arcadia do them, 75w does the trick for most, your aiming for a basking temperature of 95-100f directly under that bulb, no higher, no lower. The rest of the enclosure ranging 75-80 during the day. 70 is a fine night temp.

If the floodlight alone isn’t heating your enclosure enough, you’ll need a CHE(ceramic heat emitter) they’re a none light emitting heat bulb that makes up ambient and night heat, this will need running on a thermostat 24/7.

Essentially correct lighting and higher humidity is going to rectify this.

I think you’ll find this thread below super useful to read through, I cover correct equipment, levels, appropriately maintaining humidity, there’s lots of visual examples for everything and a good diet link to check out

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

This one is also really good to familiarise with, it will help you avoid the wrong bulbs, materials, housing etc

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Give them both a read and please come back with any further questions you have!

Thank you so much for your help. I didnt know this could happen so fast! I have only had her 2 weeks. I will have a read through the links you sent. I feel bad!

 

[sbuh04]

Your temperatures sound good for a temperate species, but let the tortoise's behavior guide you. Does the tortoise spend a lot of time each day basking? If yes, then your enclosure is too cool and you need to warm up the ambient temperature.

Halogens cause pyramiding. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Halogens desiccate the carapace. Swap to a regular incandescent flood bulb for basking.

You also need to get humidity up higher and add a humid hide box. Close in as much of the top as you can to keep humidity up.

Food has nothing to do with pyramiding. Feed your tortoise as much as it wants to eat of the right foods. Favor weeds, leaves, and flowers when possible.

Urate production is an indicator that your tortoise is not well hydrated enough. Soak more and for longer. I'd soak every day for at least two weeks to eliminate urate production and clear what is already there. Then, you can start skipping soak days now and then again.

Questions are welcome.

Thank you for your help Tom!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you so much for your help. I didnt know this could happen so fast! I have only had her 2 weeks. I will have a read through the links you sent. I feel bad!

No problem at all! And please don’t feel bad, this is very common with lots of new keepers, you’ve caught it so young you’ll barely notice anything once they start growing and all your levels are correct with right lighting, it will be purely cosmetic

 

[sbuh04]

Hello and welcome to the forum!

That is indeed the start of pyramiding, but don’t fret, I can tell tell from your description what’s happening and how to fix it, your a first time tort mom so don’t feel bad about this, it happens, she’s still a little baby so once fixed and she grows, you’ll hardly notice it.

First port of call, she needs a closed chamber 24/7 to maintain humidity in the 80’s, high humidity is a key factor for smoother growth in babies, an open top doesn’t keep the level where it needs to be.

The halogen light will also be contributing, that needs switching to an incandescent floodlight, Arcadia do them, 75w does the trick for most, your aiming for a basking temperature of 95-100f directly under that bulb, no higher, no lower. The rest of the enclosure ranging 75-80 during the day. 70 is a fine night temp.

If the floodlight alone isn’t heating your enclosure enough, you’ll need a CHE(ceramic heat emitter) they’re a none light emitting heat bulb that makes up ambient and night heat, this will need running on a thermostat 24/7.

Essentially correct lighting and higher humidity is going to rectify this.

I think you’ll find this thread below super useful to read through, I cover correct equipment, levels, appropriately maintaining humidity, there’s lots of visual examples for everything and a good diet link to check out

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

This one is also really good to familiarise with, it will help you avoid the wrong bulbs, materials, housing etc

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Give them both a read and please come back with any further questions you have!

I have another question, if I’m going to make the enclosure closed, how do I get the lights at the right height? Right now they are about an inch above the bin hanging. I worry if it’s closed that it will be too hot. Do they need air holes?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I have another question, if I’m going to make the enclosure closed, how do I get the lights at the right height? Right now they are about an inch above the bin hanging. I worry if it’s closed that it will be too hot. Do they need air holes?

could we get a photo of your full set up? Might help to come with some suggestions on how to mount your bulbs so they’re inside the chamber but not too low
In terms of overheating, you’ll need to get the basking bulb, try hanging it roughly at the height of your current bulb, have your digital monitoring directly under it for a few hours and do a temp gun check underneath, if it’s reading too hot, try raising the bulb, leave it and re check, if it’s still too hot try a lower watt, if on the flip side the readings are too cool, lower the bulb(obviously not dangerously close) it might take some tweaking here n there, do all these checks with the cover on. If you’re happy with the temperatures after a few hours, you’re good to go, during hotter summer days do temp checks regardless of set up, always good to for safety.
If you’re reaching the desired 95f-100f basking temperature under your basking bulb, perfect! But if you’re finding it’s not keeping your cooler end at least 75 during the day, I’d set up a ceramic bulb, that will run on the thermostat so you won’t have to worry about that overheating your enclosure.

No need for air holes or vents with a ‘greenhouse’ set up, the enclosure won’t be air tight and doing daily husbandries will be enough air exchange

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I have another question, if I’m going to make the enclosure closed, how do I get the lights at the right height? Right now they are about an inch above the bin hanging. I worry if it’s closed that it will be too hot. Do they need air holes?

The way you hang them is important too. You don't want to create a chimney effect sucking out all the humidity. A photo of your enclosure would be helpful.

 

[sbuh04]

could we get a photo of your full set up? Might help to come with some suggestions on how to mount your bulbs so they’re inside the chamber but not too low
In terms of overheating, you’ll need to get the basking bulb, try hanging it roughly at the height of your current bulb, have your digital monitoring directly under it for a few hours and do a temp gun check underneath, if it’s reading too hot, try raising the bulb, leave it and re check, if it’s still too hot try a lower watt, if on the flip side the readings are too cool, lower the bulb(obviously not dangerously close) it might take some tweaking here n there, do all these checks with the cover on. If you’re happy with the temperatures after a few hours, you’re good to go, during hotter summer days do temp checks regardless of set up, always good to for safety.
If you’re reaching the desired 95f-100f basking temperature under your basking bulb, perfect! But if you’re finding it’s not keeping your cooler end at least 75 during the day, I’d set up a ceramic bulb, that will run on the thermostat so you won’t have to worry about that overheating your enclosure.

No need for air holes or vents with a ‘greenhouse’ set up, the enclosure won’t be air tight and doing daily husbandries will be enough air exchange

I’m now learning I probably need to change my substrate too. I have peat moss mixed with sphagnum moss. I feel bad I followed the instructions of that Facebook group because I thought they knew what they were talking about. Only to find out they were wasting my money and endangering Harriet I’m glad I found this forum.

 

[sbuh04]

I’m now learning I probably need to change my substrate too. I have peat moss mixed with sphagnum moss. I feel bad I followed the instructions of that Facebook group because I thought they knew what they were talking about. Only to find out they were wasting my money and endangering Harriet I’m glad I found this forum.
View attachment 379724

could we get a photo of your full set up? Might help to come with some suggestions on how to mount your bulbs so they’re inside the chamber but not too low
In terms of overheating, you’ll need to get the basking bulb, try hanging it roughly at the height of your current bulb, have your digital monitoring directly under it for a few hours and do a temp gun check underneath, if it’s reading too hot, try raising the bulb, leave it and re check, if it’s still too hot try a lower watt, if on the flip side the readings are too cool, lower the bulb(obviously not dangerously close) it might take some tweaking here n there, do all these checks with the cover on. If you’re happy with the temperatures after a few hours, you’re good to go, during hotter summer days do temp checks regardless of set up, always good to for safety.
If you’re reaching the desired 95f-100f basking temperature under your basking bulb, perfect! But if you’re finding it’s not keeping your cooler end at least 75 during the day, I’d set up a ceramic bulb, that will run on the thermostat so you won’t have to worry about that overheating your enclosure.

No need for air holes or vents with a ‘greenhouse’ set up, the enclosure won’t be air tight and doing daily husbandries will be enough air exchange

I’m glad I asked here because this is what they told me about her shell :

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I’m now learning I probably need to change my substrate too. I have peat moss mixed with sphagnum moss. I feel bad I followed the instructions of that Facebook group because I thought they knew what they were talking about. Only to find out they were wasting my money and endangering Harriet I’m glad I found this forum.
View attachment 379724

Don’t feel bad, this happens a lot, I’d switch your substrate to coco coir, make sure it’s nice and damp and firmly pack it down by hand, if left fluffy it can dry faster.

I’m glad you found us too!

Personally to make this a closed chamber that will keep the lighting inside, I’d get some pvc piping(that come with attachments) and make something kind of like this,(attached below)make it a size that fits over the entire thing snuggly, but not so tight that’s difficult to lift it on and off, and don’t build it too tall, just high enough that it holds the lighting and the covering isn’t touching any of the fixtures, they can get pretty hot! Then have some lining on your floor to catch the condensate.


That’s my idea anyway, there’s multiple ways to go about it, a greenhouse cover could also work depending what size you can get your hands on

 

[sbuh04]

Don’t feel bad, this happens a lot, I’d switch your substrate to coco coir, make sure it’s nice and damp and firmly pack it down by hand, if left fluffy it can dry faster.

I’m glad you found us too!

Personally to make this a closed chamber that will keep the lighting inside, I’d get some pvc piping(that come with attachments) and make something kind of like this,(attached below)make it a size that fits over the entire thing snuggly, but not so tight that’s difficult to lift it on and off, and don’t build it too tall, just high enough that it holds the lighting and the covering isn’t touching any of the fixtures, they can get pretty hot! Then have some lining on your floor to catch the condensate.
View attachment 379754

That’s my idea anyway, there’s multiple ways to go about it, a greenhouse cover could also work depending what size you can get your hands on

Ok thank you. Would it work to cut a hole in the lid of the bin and mount the lights that way?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Ok thank you. Would it work to cut a hole in the lid of the bin and mount the lights that way?

Possibly! Some have, I just think you’ll struggle for the long uv light making sure it’s closed enough, also the elements still would technically be outside the chamber which can sometimes create a chimney effect, people just make a hole for the basking or a ceramic bulb with this kind of set up usually, then meet their uv needs naturally. No harm in trying though!

If you’d prefer some sort of lid and the box lid doesn’t work, maybe this kind of design will work better for you?

 

[sbuh04]

Possibly! Some have, I just think you’ll struggle for the long uv light making sure it’s closed enough, also the elements still would technically be outside the chamber which can sometimes create a chimney effect, people just make a hole for the basking or a ceramic bulb with this kind of set up usually, then meet their uv needs naturally. No harm in trying though!

If you’d prefer some sort of lid and the box lid doesn’t work, maybe this kind of design will work better for you?
View attachment 379755

Could you elaborate on the 'chimney effect' what is it and why does it happen?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Could you elaborate on the 'chimney effect' what is it and why does it happen?

Essentially having your heating elements on the outside, or holes in the lid can draw
all your heat and humidity up and out, a closed chamber needs to be as closed as possible to eliminate air exchange, having the top open, even sightly for the lights, can cause the heat to be drawn out, rising to the top like a ‘chimney’, hopefully that makes some sense, I’m not the best at explaining it @Tom or @Alex and the Redfoot are definitely better lol

 

[sbuh04]

Essentially having your heating elements on the outside, or holes in the lid can draw
all your heat and humidity up and out, a closed chamber needs to be as closed as possible to eliminate air exchange, having the top open, even sightly for the lights, can cause the heat to be drawn out, rising to the top like a ‘chimney’, hopefully that makes some sense, I’m not the best at explaining it @Tom or @Alex and the Redfoot are definitely better lol

hmm ok. What if I cut the holes just big enough and used aluminum tape to seal it up? but then my UVB might be too close. How close is too close?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

hmm ok. What if I cut the holes just big enough and used aluminum tape to seal it up? but then my UVB might be too close. How close is too close?

It could work and is definitely worth a shot before trying to build something else as you already have the lidat least you know why it might not and can have a back up plan in place.
For the Arcadia Uv you want it at least 18-20 inches from the top of the tortoises shell

 

[sbuh04]

It could work and is definitely worth a shot before trying to build something else as you already have the lidat least you know why it might not and can have a back up plan in place.
For the Arcadia Uv you want it at least 18-20 inches from the top of the tortoises shell

Oh damn then I would need a new bin. I will get a greenhouse cover.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Oh damn then I would need a new bin. I will get a greenhouse cover.

Yeah with the greenhouse covers you can sometimes use the frame to hang your lighting(still use chains so it’s not hanging by just the wire)if it feels sturdy enough