question regarding sulcata staple diet

[carapace]

im currently feeding my sulcata elephant grass as a staple food.. is this okay, i also powder some d3 and sometimes give hibiscus flowers as a treat...

 

[tortoisenerd]

Do you know exactly what type of elephant grass? There are several types. What's the protein content in it?

 

[Kristina]

I think you should be feeding more variety than just grass and hibiscus. They need more nutrient variables than that.

In another post your tort looked pretty pyramided, and that tells me there needs to be a change.

Whether or not the elephant grass is good depends on protein content, as Kate already asked.

Kristina

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Your tortoise needs a more varied diet. During winter when graze is hard to come by, I buy a box of Spring Mix from the produce section in the store. then I add all kinds of different lettuces and collards, dandelion, kale, endive, escarole etc, and whatever else the store has to offer. I also pick weeds and cut whatever grass is available which is not much cause it's mostly under snow right now. but anyway that's the basis of what I do, then I cut up hay into small pieces for my smaller tortoises and add regular hay for my larger tortoises. I also add weeds and leafs and blooms...
I go to the feed store and fill several large bags with loose hay. Sometimes they charge me $2 and sometimes it's free. It's soft and sweet smelling locally grown grass hay and marsh grass...

 

[Yvonne G]

Elephant grass is just ONE of the different types of seeds in the "grazing tortoise mixture" that you can buy from Turtlestuff.com. There's nothing wrong with elephant grass, but its not enough variety.

Yvonne

 

[smoke_kush]

d3 is really bad for torts. It can actually intoxicate them. But a calcium supplement is a very good addition to a torts diet

 

[Meg90]

I have NEVER heard that about d3. In fact, I have heard that hatchlings, and juvies should have d3 everyday....

where did you read about that?

 

[Yvonne G]

d3 is really bad for torts. It can actually intoxicate them. But a calcium supplement is a very good addition to a torts diet

I had never heard this before, so I did a GOOGLE search on "tortoise vitamin d intoxication" and came up with this site. Its good reading, but I think the fact that it talks about intoxication in a naked mole rat rather than in a creature that actually sees the sun negates the intoxication theory for tortoises. If you scroll down, it does talk about the importance of D3 in reptiles, but not intoxication in reptiles:

http://www.russiantortoise.org/vitamin_d3.htm

Yvonne

 

[Meg90]

Thanks Yvonne...I was worried for a sec!
Nigel's supplement has d3 in it...And I know that Danny does recommend it for hatchlings...

 

[tortoisenerd]

I've heard both arguments. I personally don't supplement D3 with the calcium as Trevor gets plenty of UVB from his bulb, I have read that too much D3 can be toxic, and my vet also said no D3 and I trust her. I personally think the danger outweighs the benefit. This has been discussed before here:

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-4760.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-4916.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-2905.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-4697.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-2932.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-587.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-5631.html

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I have pretty much kept to the rule that if your tort has access to the sun, no D3. If he doesn't get in the sun then he needs D3...or is it the other way around???

 

[tortoisenerd]

Maggie-I think you have it right. Some here will disagree with us though.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Maggie-I think you have it right. Some here will disagree with us though.

Let'em...I will drag out my healthy active not pyramided animals and show them off...lol

 

[smoke_kush]

My vet also said NOOOOO to the D3! I trust my doctor in his medical advice.

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Dude, I'm telling you. The d3 can be very harmful to your tortoise. It will intoxicate the tortoise if too much is given! Calcium without the d3 is much healthier than the latter supplement. Ask your vet and he/she will tell you the same thing man.
Be kind to your tortoise

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I am not a dude...very much the woman actually...I have raised numerous tortoises with and without D3. My animals have to be inside here for 7 months thru the winter and they need the D-3 to carry them thru until the spring. They need D3 to help metabolize the food...but you shouldn't mix D3 and sunlight... you shouldn't mix D3 with UVB rays...

 

[Kristina]

I am not a dude...very much the woman actually...I have raised numerous tortoises with and without D3. My animals have to be inside here for 7 months thru the winter and they need the D-3 to carry them thru until the spring. They need D3 to help metabolize the food...but you shouldn't mix D3 and sunlight... you shouldn't mix D3 with UVB rays...

I agree with this... I do not give D3 to torts that are either out in the sunlight, or under UV lights.

There is a certain amount of D3 that is also obtained from diet. Overdosing D3 leads to mineralization of the soft tissues and renal damage.

It is more important IMO for growing tortoises to recieve D3 than mature ones, but I still feel that over-doing it can be very dangerous. I think that many tortoise keepers overestimate the amount of UV needed to synthesize proper D3 production, and over supplement D3.

Maggie, you are very much the woman, and a strong one at that

Kristina

 

[Meg90]

Be kind to your tortoise

I know you are new here and all, but to give advice is one thing, to imply mistreatment is ANOTHER.

I know you mean well, and probably just want to get your point across, but no one here is INTENTIONALLY trying to harm their tortoise. I was actually pretty offended by that remark, and the accompanying email I received.

Honestly, you are new to tortoises. People here have kept them for years.

And sometimes vets are just downright WRONG. I have seen it on these forums more than once, in just the past few months that I have been here.

I trust Maggie however, and if she says that its a no-no. I will get a new supplement.

 

[nrfitchett4]

not sure about tort's, but for ig's dietary d3 is a no-no. their stomach doesn't do well processing it and it can cause illness.
a good rule of thumb is that any vitamin that is fat soluble can be overdosed. Why chance it when they can get it all from sunlight?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D[hr]
Vitamin D and Ultraviolet Light
Animals in their natural habitat are extremely unlikely to suffer hypovitaminosis-D3. Deficiencies are possible in captive animals which are deprived of access to sunlight or a suitable artificial U.V. source of sufficient intensity, e.g. True-lite @ (Durolite Corporation) or blacklight. Symptoms of deficiency include poor locomotion, osteomalacia and osteoporosis. Plant foods contain nil vitamin D3 [plants do contain ergocalciferol, otherwise known as. D2. -MK]. The skin of tortoises is however, extremely rich in oils containing sterols which react with UV to produces the vitamin and provided adequate UV exposure is attained oral supplementation is not necessary (Kauffield, 1969; Wagner, 1977). It is common for herpetologists to over estimate D3 demand and to grossly overdose orally. One possible consequence of this practice is metastatic mineralisation of the soft tissues (Barten, 1982; Wallach and Hoessle, 1966). Vitamin D3 is highly toxic and extreme caution should be exercised whenever oral supplementation is employed (Finlayson and Woods, 1977). If calcium and phosphorous are provided in suitable ratios and sufficient quantity and quality of UV are available, hypovitaminosis D3 is not at all likely. Human demand is for 10 micrograms (400iu) per day which can be obtained from as little as 3 hours exposure to sunlight. The requirements of tortoises are not known in detail, although Zwart (1987) suggest that 10-20,000 iu of D3 per Kg of general vitamin-mineral supplement dosed routinely at 4% food volume is an effective prophylactic measure where exposure to UV is inadequate.



taken from: http://www.anapsid.org/dietcons.html

 

[Maggie Cummings]

not sure about tort's, but for ig's dietary d3 is a no-no. their stomach doesn't do well processing it and it can cause illness.
a good rule of thumb is that any vitamin that is fat soluble can be overdosed. Why chance it when they can get it all from sunlight?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D[hr]
Vitamin D and Ultraviolet Light
Animals in their natural habitat are extremely unlikely to suffer hypovitaminosis-D3. Deficiencies are possible in captive animals which are deprived of access to sunlight or a suitable artificial U.V. source of sufficient intensity, e.g. True-lite @ (Durolite Corporation) or blacklight. Symptoms of deficiency include poor locomotion, osteomalacia and osteoporosis. Plant foods contain nil vitamin D3 [plants do contain ergocalciferol, otherwise known as. D2. -MK]. The skin of tortoises is however, extremely rich in oils containing sterols which react with UV to produces the vitamin and provided adequate UV exposure is attained oral supplementation is not necessary (Kauffield, 1969; Wagner, 1977). It is common for herpetologists to over estimate D3 demand and to grossly overdose orally. One possible consequence of this practice is metastatic mineralisation of the soft tissues (Barten, 1982; Wallach and Hoessle, 1966). Vitamin D3 is highly toxic and extreme caution should be exercised whenever oral supplementation is employed (Finlayson and Woods, 1977). If calcium and phosphorous are provided in suitable ratios and sufficient quantity and quality of UV are available, hypovitaminosis D3 is not at all likely. Human demand is for 10 micrograms (400iu) per day which can be obtained from as little as 3 hours exposure to sunlight. The requirements of tortoises are not known in detail, although Zwart (1987) suggest that 10-20,000 iu of D3 per Kg of general vitamin-mineral supplement dosed routinely at 4% food volume is an effective prophylactic measure where exposure to UV is inadequate.

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I'm not sure what I did here but I cut in on another's post and didn't mean to. I was just reading it and had already replied...

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[galvinkaos]

Yvonne, how about cuttlebone in the enclosure for them to eat when they want? Would you sprinkle their food occasionally too?

Dawna