Questions and discussion about naturalistic ecosystem enclosures for red-eared sliders

[Wayfarin]

Hello, folks!
As you may have known from my previous post, we currently have an adult female red-eared slider turtle named Teresa.
She's a medium-sized specimen, small for a female, at about 8 inches of shell length. She's a little over 12 years of age, and at this age I don't suspect she will grow much more in the future.



She's been living most of her life in an undersized glass tank. When we first purchased her from a place called West Hartford Puppy Center (now closed down) in Connecticut, we had a large plastic pool, possibly over 100 gallons, which is where we put her (and several feeder fish, which she didn't actually eat) for the first few days.
It was our fear of raccoons that caused us to bring Teresa indoors.

Since then, she's been living in a glass tank, where she spent most of her life. We occasionally allowed her to roam outside, but not often enough.
After we moved, we moved her to a plastic bin for temporary housing.
Unfortunately, I can't say she's ever lived in a habitat larger than 30 gallons since we moved her from the pool.

After the move, we've decided that it may finally be time to upgrade her enclosure.
The initial idea was to move her to a larger aquarium, maybe a 100-gallon tank. However, I've come to the conclusion that keeping her in an outdoor enclosure would be the overall best investment. Purchasing a 100-gallon aquarium and the needed associated supplies would not cost much less than installing a 1,000-gallon pond, anyway.
And the raccoons? I feel we're finally ready to challenge them. I will post a separate thread about outdoor turtle safety.

However, there are a few questions regarding outdoor housing, that do not involve procyonids, that I intend to bring to attention.

First of all, would a backyard turtle pond require electricity to function?
I initially wanted to install a pond with a waterfall feature. However, I found out something.
Apparently we do not have outside electricity (which also means that we cannot have Christmas lights). 🙁
This leaves us with only a few options if we want to circulate the water. We would have to use solar-powered aerators/bubblers, battery backups, or manually aerate the water with a hose.
The wind and rain might also help with aeration.
Does anyone else have outdoor turtle enclosures without electricity?

Second of all, would it be possible to achieve an equilibrium that's so well established that the pond would not require water changes?
From what I've head, most ponds do not require cleaning more than once a year. And as I've mentioned, we have space for a 900-1,000-gallon pond, which would probably only be stocked with Teresa, frogs, minnows, crayfish, and many plants.
I'm aware of how biological filtration works, and I will probably allow the pond to cycle for months before introducing Teresa.
This may be something that I have to experiment for myself.

Third of all, could a red-eared slider coexist more peacefully with other aquatic creatures in a pond than in an aquarium?
I know that red-eared sliders are renowned for their aggressive tendencies when kept in aquariums.
However, I'm wondering if red-eared sliders are somewhat more peaceful in more natural pond settings. Slider turtles seem to be able to coexist with other animals quite peacefully in nature. I'm aware that this may simply be due to the fact that the smaller animals have more escape opportunities, but it doesn't matter if it works out.
This may also be something that I have to study for myself after setting up the pond enclosure.

I can be expected to post separate threads about these topics, going into even greater detail.
However, any input, especially from experience, would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance! God bless!

 

[Maggie3fan]

RES are extremely aggressive and with that knowledge I would not put any other turtle in an enclosure with a slider. They are illegal to own in Oregon. In the PNW, res's have taken over so much of the natural area for Western Pond turtle that they are now endangered, as well as the Western Painted turtle. I have a hand dug pond for my box turtles, no filtration or heat. That res would like to hibernate during the winter...and you should make the pond deep enuf so raccoons can't each the turtle...hope this helps some...I have to add water constantly...the cinder block keep the turtles inside the pond...

 

[DoubleD1996!]

I keep mine in a large pond outside. Some sort of filtration is a must so the turtle doesn't get fungus. Like if there was a dead fish it didn't eat that nasty water will need to be filtered and circulated out. You could always do the pump to garbage can filter. I run and extension cord with cord protectors from my garage. I also use a lot of aquatic plants in the filter and ones that float on the surface to filter out the water, but the cooters make short work of them. Speaking of cooters, mine tend to live in harmony with my sliders. They primarily eat weeds and aquatic vegetation, so they don't compete with the sliders much for protein. There are solar powered pumps you can get off Amazon. Fairly cheap. They run well but only if exposed to constant sunlight. My only concern would be overcast days, and maybe winter days when that water needs to circulate during their brumation period.

 

[Wayfarin]

I keep mine in a large pond outside. Some sort of filtration is a must so the turtle doesn't get fungus. Like if there was a dead fish it didn't eat that nasty water will need to be filtered and circulated out. You could always do the pump to garbage can filter. I run and extension cord with cord protectors from my garage. I also use a lot of aquatic plants in the filter and ones that float on the surface to filter out the water, but the cooters make short work of them. Speaking of cooters, mine tend to live in harmony with my sliders. They primarily eat weeds and aquatic vegetation, so they don't compete with the sliders much for protein. There are solar powered pumps you can get off Amazon. Fairly cheap. They run well but only if exposed to constant sunlight. My only concern would be overcast days, and maybe winter days when that water needs to circulate during their brumation period.

Aren't there other ways to deal with fungus, such as manually skimming the surface for for dead fish, siphoning the bottom, or brushing the turtle's shell?
Red-eared sliders originate from still water habitats that do not get much input of fresh water from other sources.
They are not like trout and other fish that inhabit streams that are constantly being replenished by fresh water.
They must have some way of dealing with fungus and other contaminants within their habitats.

 

[DoubleD1996!]

Aren't there other ways to deal with fungus, such as manually skimming the surface for for dead fish, siphoning the bottom, or brushing the turtle's shell?
Red-eared sliders originate from still water habitats that do not get much input of fresh water from other sources.
They are not like trout and other fish that inhabit streams that are constantly being replenished by fresh water.
They must have some way of dealing with fungus and other contaminants within their habitats.

Sure that can work, but that's in a more balanced ecosystem if that makes since. Even in stagnant water, there are plants and other vertebrae keeping the water clean. You can do that. It'd just be easier with filtration. My hatchlings stay in tubs during the summer and I overflow their water every other day.

 

[Wayfarin]

Sure that can work, but that's in a more balanced ecosystem if that makes since. Even in stagnant water, there are plants and other vertebrae keeping the water clean. You can do that. It'd just be easier with filtration. My hatchlings stay in tubs during the summer and I overflow their water every other day.

Yeah, it figures that since red-eared sliders have a strong tendency to feed on submerged plants they would never thrive, even if they survive, in a pond without dense aquatic vegetation.

And then there are the nitrifying bacteria that thrive in warm, oxygenated water, and the denitrifying bacteria that thrive in deep substrate beds with organic matter.

But even a 1,000-gallon manmade pond has it's limitations. We are not God and cannot perfectly replicate nature. At best, we can use science to our advantage and "copy" the way natural systems work.
I doubt that even such a pond could sustain more than one or two mature turtles, a few frogs, and a few small, hardy fish like minnows or mosquitofish.

And to avoid getting my hopes unrealistically high, I suspect that it could take up to a year of care and attention before the pond is actually self-sustaining. And even then, some maintenance, like pruning plants, may be needed.

 

[mark1]

But even a 1,000-gallon manmade pond has it's limitations. We are not God and cannot perfectly replicate nature. At best, we can use science to our advantage and "copy" the way natural systems work.
I doubt that even such a pond could sustain more than one or two mature turtles, a few frogs, and a few small, hardy fish like minnows or mosquitofish.

imo , this is incorrect ........ i've raised many turtles and fish in ponds no larger than 200gallons that appear to me to be self sustaining for decades ..... been my experience it's not about the gallons , it's about the filtration ....... i have 3 wood turtles that hatched in 2014 , they have lived 24/7/365 in a pond, with emerald shiners, that may hold 150 gallons max ...... i have 6 blandings turtles that have lived 24/7/365 in 200 a gallon pond max , with emerald shiners, for the last 9yrs...... there is nothing about the natural nitrification cycle that cannot be replicated artificially .... can you overload a filtration system? absolutely , a natural nitrification system can be overloaded .....

 

[Wayfarin]

imo , this is incorrect ........ i've raised many turtles and fish in ponds no larger than 200gallons that appear to me to be self sustaining for decades ..... been my experience it's not about the gallons , it's about the filtration ....... i have 3 wood turtles that hatched in 2014 , they have lived 24/7/365 in a pond, with emerald shiners, that may hold 150 gallons max ...... i have 6 blandings turtles that have lived 24/7/365 in 200 a gallon pond max , with emerald shiners, for the last 9yrs...... there is nothing about the natural nitrification cycle that cannot be replicated artificially .... can you overload a filtration system? absolutely , a natural nitrification system can be overloaded .....

There is still so much that we don't know about aquatic ecosystems and how different chemical compounds interact with each other that it would not be safe to say that we can "perfectly replicate" nature.
Science can tell us everything we need to know about nature, but learning "everything" about it could take centuries. No individual person will know enough about aquatic ecosystems to create a truly perfect pond. All we can do is look at natural ponds and try to copy every basic aspect, which may have successful results, but is likely to be lacking at least some aspects that would define it as "perfect."

It's difficult to tell if water conditions are actually "perfect" when keeping turtles and hardy fish like emerald shiners because they are among the organisms that can tolerate a wide variety of water conditions.

For example, if you were to remove the the six Blanding's turtles and replace them with two or three largemouth bass, the biological filtration might not be enough to sustain the more sensitive fish, even though it suits the turtles and small shiners, and the waste load remains more or less the same.

 

[Wayfarin]

Nevertheless, you have corrected my underestimation of biological filtration. 6 turtles in a 200-gallon pond is a much higher waste load than I would have thought could be handled by plants and bacteria alone.

 

[mark1]

emerald shiners are not "hardy fish", large mouth bass are extremely hardy fish that could survive in a mud puddle ...... the only thing unnatural about a properly set up pond is what's moving the water ......... it's also very easy to know the quality of water .......it's not rocket science ......



An Evaluation of the Emerald Shiner (Notropis atherinoides) as a Bioindicator of Urban Water Pollution in the Upper Niagara River
"the emerald shiner (Notropis atherinoides) is a keystone species that is sensitive to ecosystem degradation and, therefore, fills the bioindicator role"

 

[mark1]

Nevertheless, you have corrected my underestimation of biological filtration. 6 turtles in a 200-gallon pond is a much higher waste load than I would have thought could be handled by plants and bacteria alone.

it's not gallons , it's filtration , how much surface area for nitrifying bacteria to grow on ....... it a well understood process , sewerage treatment plants treat sewerage from cities with populations of millions . it's been perfected .......... what cannot be duplicated in this hobby is the sun ...... that is rocket science ......

 

[Wayfarin]

emerald shiners are not "hardy fish", large mouth bass are extremely hardy fish that could survive in a mud puddle ...... the only thing unnatural about a properly set up pond is what's moving the water ......... it's also very easy to know the quality of water .......it's not rocket science ......



An Evaluation of the Emerald Shiner (Notropis atherinoides) as a Bioindicator of Urban Water Pollution in the Upper Niagara River
"the emerald shiner (Notropis atherinoides) is a keystone species that is sensitive to ecosystem degradation and, therefore, fills the bioindicator role"

Largemouth bass are hardy, but have much higher oxygen requirements than a mud puddle could provide.
Emerald shiners are simply hardier because they do not require as much oxygen due to their smaller size.

Oxygen is *extremely* important for water quality, as it sustains animals, is used by beneficial bacteria, and even neutralizes hydrogen sulfide. Three active largemouth bass (which grow over 18") would consume so much oxygen in a 200-gallon pond that everything would collapse without at least a powerful aerator.

Nonetheless, I understand what your point is. Since emerald shiners are good bioindicators, their ability to thrive in your pond suggests no obvious water quality issues. But not all animals have the same tolerances. Your pond might be suitable for what you are keeping (turtles and shiners) but just because some animals can survive in your pond does not mean that any pond creature could. For example, the ammonia levels in your pond might not bother emerald shiners but the same ammonia levels would probably be detrimental to rainbow trout.

Some animals we cannot even keep in captivity.

 

[Wayfarin]

it's not gallons , it's filtration , how much surface area for nitrifying bacteria to grow on ....... it a well understood process , sewerage treatment plants treat sewerage from cities with populations of millions . it's been perfected .......... what cannot be duplicated in this hobby is the sun ...... that is rocket science ......

The surface area is important but that does not dismiss the importance of the amount of water compared to the amount of animals (especially large animals) living in it.

A 5-gallon puddle could never sustain a goldfish no matter what. Any amount of plants and beneficial bacteria would do nothing to save it.

Look at natural pond ecosystems. How dense are the fish populations compared to captive settings?
An average pond contains so few fish in proportion to its size that it can be pretty difficult to spot any from the shore.

A there may not seem to be any difference in the beginning, but a lightly-stocked pond is almost sure to have a longer lifespan.

 

[mark1]

i'm not exactly sure where your facts are coming from, but they are incorrect ........density ????? a natural system can become overloaded , it happens all the time ?????? what does that have to do with artificially creating a natural nitrification cycle , or anything i said????? i don't believe you can create an unnatural nitrification cycle ???? but going back to my original response , you are wrong, a completely natural nitrification cycle can be made "artificially" ..this isn't a theory .....

i've lived on a great lakes tributary my entire life , i been fishing since before i even knew what fishing was ...... i've kept largemouth bass , smallmouth bass , gars, every kind of sunfish, minnow, and native fish to the great lakes ....i've kept aquariums for more than half a century ...... i've kept just about every kind central/south american cichlid you could name ... you cannot find a pond in this state that does not support largemouth bass ...... i've caught largemouth bass out of stagnant farm and retention ponds in august where the water was actually hot, you can't even eat them, they taste like mud and are mushy ... every development retention pond around here is stocked with largemouth bass, some of these ponds are bordeline "mud puddles" ......largemouth bass are one of the worst invasive species worldwide , they'll live and over run anywhere they're put .......

when you say " A 5-gallon puddle could never sustain a goldfish no matter what." how do you think you can create a natural pond without filtration/moving water ???? isn't that just a big mud puddle ??????

it's honestly pretty easy

 

[Wayfarin]

i'm not exactly sure where your facts are coming from, but they are incorrect ........density ????? a natural system can become overloaded , it happens all the time ?????? what does that have to do with artificially creating a natural nitrification cycle , or anything i said????? i don't believe you can create an unnatural nitrification cycle ???? but going back to my original response , you are wrong, a completely natural nitrification cycle can be made "artificially" ..this isn't a theory .....

i've lived on a great lakes tributary my entire life , i been fishing since before i even knew what fishing was ...... i've kept largemouth bass , smallmouth bass , gars, every kind of sunfish, minnow, and native fish to the great lakes ....i've kept aquariums for more than half a century ...... i've kept just about every kind central/south american cichlid you could name ... you cannot find a pond in this state that does not support largemouth bass ...... i've caught largemouth bass out of stagnant farm and retention ponds in august where the water was actually hot, you can't even eat them, they taste like mud and are mushy ... every development retention pond around here is stocked with largemouth bass, some of these ponds are bordeline "mud puddles" ......largemouth bass are one of the worst invasive species worldwide , they'll live and over run anywhere they're put .......

when you say " A 5-gallon puddle could never sustain a goldfish no matter what." how do you think you can create a natural pond without filtration/moving water ???? isn't that just a big mud puddle ??????

it's honestly pretty easy

Never mind. I think I misunderstood what you said

it's not gallons , it's filtration , how much surface area for nitrifying bacteria to grow on .......

I thought you meant that it does not matter how much water you keep the animals in.
But you were talking about the needs of the bacteria. The BACTERIA need surface area, not gallons.
The ANIMALS, on the other hand, do need a certain amount of gallons to live in.

For example, the same 200-gallon pond that can sustain six turtles could not sustain them if it was just plastic, plants, and water. The gravel, sand, detritus, rocks, logs, and other naturalistic aspects are what allow the bacteria to colonize and carry out the water cycle.

Just because bass are present in a pond doesn't mean that they are thriving. Why do you think they taste like mud? But regardless, I think largemouth bass were a terrible example of a sensitive fish on my part.
But your example was my point exactly. Some species are better candidates for stagnant artificial ponds than others. I'm sure you would not disagree that many other fish could not survive the conditions of those ponds.

When I said that a goldfish could not thrive in a 5-gallon puddle, that was true. But a natural pond without moving water is hardly a mud puddle. Just because the water is cloudy does not mean that it is polluted. Some species, like bass, sunfish, catfish, and minnows thrive in still habitats. Others (like trout) not so much.

Why do you have to take offense to my saying that manmade ponds have limitations? Can any of us create Lake Erie sustain literally billions of large fish, some of which are very sensitive, without electricity?

Can manmade fish habitats replicate the water cycle? Yes!
Can these artificial ponds without electricity sustain as many fish as natural ponds?
No, but they can sustain fish if they are adapted to the conditions.

Even if the water cycle works the same as in natural ponds, most largemouth bass don't live in 200-gallon ponds in the wild and as a result the conditions won't be perfect even if the bass could survive.

My point is that manmade backyard ponds that depend entirely on biological filtration (no electricity) cannot hold as many large fish/turtles as those with filters, air pumps, and other tools that assist the survival of fish in heavily-stocked ponds. Unless someone can successfully create a 1,000,000 gallon backyard pond. Now THAT would replicate nature.

After what you told me about bass, I do not doubt their hardiness. I just personally would not consider a 200-gallon pond ideal for them. Maybe a single small individual could manage.

(By the way, the pond looks great! That's what I dream of housing Teresa in. It looks like a sustainable, thriving ecosystem to me!)