Tom said:Point 1: Neal, can you be 100% sure that your friendly Gpb do not have some Gpp blood in their history? I am 100% sure of the DNA of all the ones I observed at the breeders and of mine and yours Gpp.
I cannot be sure. From what I know, the imports of leopard tortoises actually from South Africa were significantly fewer in number than the tortoises imported from elsewhere. So I can make an arguement that it is not very probable. Even if they do have mixed DNA, what if they are friendly as a result of their "East African genetics"? It would be hard to answer that question based on yours and my observations alone so for purposes of drawing a mutual conclusion, I think we need to throw this point out.
Tom said:Point 2: This now pertains to the individual bias that Neal spoke of. Neal most of your tortoise experience is with stars, Gpb and a lone female sulcata that was not very outgoing, according to your description. I propose that your frame of reference might be different than mine where most of my experience is with adult sulcatas, russians and CDTs. Your experience is mostly with species that most tortoise keepers would consider "shy". Most of my experience is with the three most aggressive outgoing bruisers of the tortoise world. I am not saying either of us is right or wrong or more or less experienced, I am saying that we have very different frames of reference for what constitutes "shy" or "outgoing".
I don't agree with our frames of reference being different, keep in mind that my experience is not limited to just what you described above. I have had many interactions with hundreds of sulcatas and desert tortoises throughout my life. And the bulk of my experience is with box turtles, which are known for having a lot of personality. But, I think what you implied is that what you and I consider to be interesting behavior is different, and I do agree with that. Agree to disagree lol.
Tom said:Point 3: Mine and Neal's Gpp were all from the same source at the same time. However I got mine soon after hatching and Neal got his months later. Unfortunately the guy caring for Neal's tortoises in that interim did not do such a good job. The point that I am getting at is that Neal's Gpp, were not in the same state as my Gpp. They did not look the same and they did not behave the same, even though some of them are likely clutch mates. This last point helps prove both mine AND Neal's points. On one hand, Neal's Gpp were much more subdued do to their history, so I say they are not representative of the typical outgoing Gpp that I have seen. On the other hand this would also prove Neal's point that upbringing and how the tortoises are interacted with has an effect on personality.
Yes, solid point and I have mentioned this in other places where this topic has come up and this is partially why I feel I can't trust my own observations. I would like another stab at some more "fresh" Spp someday. But, I still think my group is a fair enough representation for what I have concluded so far considering all the other variables we have discussed.
Tom said:Likewise, I have no doubt that generalities within the various species also exist. Sulcatas that follow people around like puppies and Indian stars that don't, being two common examples. Can there be a shy sulcata or curious star? Absolutely! But to borrow another poster's phrase "The exception proves the rule."
My disagreement is with the rule. I do understand that it is just a matter of opinion, but I have observed enough "exceptions" to conclude that the generalities do not fairly represent the species or variants. I am glad this thread was brought up as it brings to light another variable in this larger debate.
I apologize that this post is not in direct relation to your questions Team Gomberg. I do think it is a useful discussion and it still does relate to the thread, just not directly. Hope you don't mind.