Reclassified Box turtles?

[justturtles]

Does anyone know if its official that T. c. mexicana and T. c. yucatana have been reclassified? I have heard that they are now T. m. mexicana and T. m. yucatana. I believe the T. c. triangulus has been included in the Mexicana species as well now. I have also heard that the Florida Box turtle T. c. bauri is now just T. bauri. If so this should open the door for Florida residents to work with these turtles since they are no longer in the Carolina group. Any thoughts or comments?

 

[Berkeley]

That was my understanding of the recent taxonomy as well. The hang up will be whether it gets accepted or not by the general public and by the states where that may be an issue (Florida, as you mentioned).

--Berkeley

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Accounts/crm_5_000_checklist_v7_2014.pdf


Pages 370 and 371 have a recent taxonomic designation. Use the page numbers as they appear/are printed in the pdf, not the page count number.

Or are you talking about some other even more recent nomenclature changes/revisions?

 

[dmmj]

great now I've got to learn new classifications?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

great now I've got to learn new classifications?

We just can't have nice things.

 

[dmmj]

We just can't have nice things.

True dat

 

[justturtles]

Yes Will. I have seen the document you provided the link to. Thank you for sharing that with us! I think it was published in June 2014. In Dec. 2015 I purchased a newly released book that was published sometime during 2015. It is named "Turtles of Alabama" by Craig Guyer, Mark A. Baily, and Robert H. Mount. I don't want people thinking I am trying to endorse the book. In fact, I truly dislike it. I am an Alabama resident. I just went through hell to get the first and only permit that allows me to be a Box turtle Farmer / Box turtle Dealer in Alabama. I purchased the book to prepare my attorney with a new change written in the book. Alabama has now classified Florida Box turtles as native to Alabama and in all of the Florida panhandle as well. Apparently someone found 3 turtles (conveniently spread out all across the lower portion of Alabama) that they are calling them Florida's. I saw a photo of one of the turtles in the book and it is definitely not a Florida. Alright, sorry everyone for getting off subject. The book indicates that triunguis, mexicana, and yucatana have all been upgraded to full species of mexicana now. It also indicates Florida's are simply Terrapene bauri now. It sure is confusing to see one book claim such changes. Who has the authority to accurately make such a species name change, or geographic distuibution change?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Yes Will. I have seen the document you provided the link to. Thank you for sharing that with us! I think it was published in June 2014. In Dec. 2015 I purchased a newly released book that was published sometime during 2015. It is named "Turtles of Alabama" by Craig Guyer, Mark A. Baily, and Robert H. Mount. I don't want people thinking I am trying to endorse the book. In fact, I truly dislike it. I am an Alabama resident. I just went through hell to get the first and only permit that allows me to be a Box turtle Farmer / Box turtle Dealer in Alabama. I purchased the book to prepare my attorney with a new change written in the book. Alabama has now classified Florida Box turtles as native to Alabama and in all of the Florida panhandle as well. Apparently someone found 3 turtles (conveniently spread out all across the lower portion of Alabama) that they are calling them Florida's. I saw a photo of one of the turtles in the book and it is definitely not a Florida. Alright, sorry everyone for getting off subject. The book indicates that triunguis, mexicana, and yucatana have all been upgraded to full species of mexicana now. It also indicates Florida's are simply Terrapene bauri now. It sure is confusing to see one book claim such changes. Who has the authority to accurately make such a species name change, or geographic distuibution change?

That authority is not as clear as it might seem.

There is an official body that has rules regarding nomenclature. Some of the rules seem to be based on common usage in what is peer reviewed literature. So pretty much anyone can change a name with some sort of sideways publication.

Say I look at the stomach content of some slider, and use a nomenclature that is different than the current accepted one. As long as I link the new name to the old one, and many people agree and use the new one, then some suite of rules are applied to say, hey;it's going to be the new not the old one anymore.

The more straightforward way is to directly publish that a name change is warranted and to argue why etc.

That official body can't do it all, so they accept sub groups with specialized knowledge. For turtles it's those guy who published the pdf I referenced.

I wrote a book review where the author did lots of, "I'm going to call it this" which prompted me to call the book a coffee table guide, not serious science. I know I know I'm mean.

So there is probably a primary point person in that referenced pdf that is the 'box turtle person' and they might or might not want to talk to an attorney, but they would know what the dealio is.

Geographic changes can be done in lots of ways, usually as an extension to a known range. Herp. Review publishes many, but that is not so much reviewed for content as it is conformity of recorded info. So as long as someone follows their format, and says we found this here, it is more or less accepted. When some one else does a species revision they will scrutinize that range extension and decide if it's valid or not based on their own and others even greater body of knowledge. Usually a big jump extension is considered false for 'natural range' even if the species was correctly identified.

It's all a bit squishy.

Some field guides show naturalized populations but don't call them native, like red-eared slider in New Zealand.

The overall push is ever more accurate, with gene typing, and better quality field locations (GPS) not the city the sample were shipped from. It's a process become refined.

 

[justturtles]

Makes sense Will. I just feel there are greater forces at play here. Like with Florida's being included as native to Alabama now. Now Alabama could say they find so few that they need to be placed on the endangered species list. Then with Alabama pushing Florida Box turtles for endangered status I can see it escalating them making it on the Federal endangered species list and they never existed in Alabama to begin with. It just does not seem fair to start a movement with a "Rumor". I feel there are authors out there with hidden agenda's to support either funding for a State, University, or other deceiving purposes. I don't think your mean at all for expressing your opinion. I hope this is one place where we can discuss our opinions. Here it is 2016, and this is the first time I have ever seen someone claim Florida Box turtles are native to Alabama. I have just had my eyes opened wide from a Wildlife Attorney that was assisting me obtain my permit in Alabama. For instance, I just read the below statement from USARK yesterday:

As posted on our Facebook page this morning, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will post tomorrow (1/13/15) in the federal register an interim rule listing 201 species (from 20 genera) of salamanders as injurious. This will prohibit importation and interstate transportation. The interim rule will be effective 15 days after posting in the register.

"This action is necessary to protect the interests of wildlife and wildlife resources from the introduction, establishment, and spread of the chytrid fungus Batrachochytrium salamandrivorans [Bsal] into ecosystems of the United States." - FWS

This is an interim and not a final rule. There will be a 60 day comment period. USARK will post updates following the federal register posting.

It is like having to vote for our next president. You never know what to believe to make a good decision or who to support.