Red Footed Tortoise Hatchling Woes

[TheArmedSparrow]

Hi friends! After long deliberation and research,I recently settled on purchasing 2 red footed tortoise hatchlings. I live in North Texas and wanted a species that would do well in this climate outdoors with some added support indoors or with heat in the winter. The choice was between redfoots or a leopard but I liked the husbandry, variety in diets, and personalities of the redfoots.

Last Friday I brought home two redfoot hatchlings. There were 3 available and I picked the largest of the 3, but when I went to pick them up, the store accidentally sold one I had selected. The remaining hatchling was considerably smaller than the other two. He still had the pip on his beak and it looked like there was still a yolk sack remnant on his belly. Against my better judgement I decided to take him in exchange for the one that got sold plus his clutch mate.

They get soaked twice a day for 15 minutes and fed once a day. I’m feeding a variety of foods including spring mix, zucchini, melon, strawberries, soaked lugarti pellets, etc. plus added calcium. The big guy eats immediately. The little one hasn’t eaten a thing since I got him Friday (5 days?). Neither have have pooped yet, even in soaks. The big guy is pretty active. He cruises around his enclosure and likes to burrow under one of the ferns. The little one is active for soaks. Has no discharge from nose and has bright eyes. But isn’t eating.

Enclosure is 75 gallon with appropriate uva/uvb hood, basking bulb, and night infrared bulb. Temps on cool side are 78 to 82 depending time of day, and warmest on warm side was recorded at 88 degrees with my temp gun. Humidity (despite having an open top that I cover) is stable between 80 to 90%. I’m using Lugarti reptile soil. There’s plenty of hides and a mix of real and synthetic plants. I’m switching out all synthetic for real this week as soon as my last batch arrives. The areas that a tortoise could look out are blocked by crawling plants. All plants are approved for tortoises.

I’m currently building an outdoor enclosure to keep them in during the day. Humidity is high here and I think they will like the natural sun/shade. So that’s my current project.

Here’s the deal- I was given a 14 day health guarantee on the tortoises. I spoke with a rep who told me hatchlings take a while to settle in and to give it until Friday (day 8). I’m pretty sure these guys were clutch mates but that the little one hatched later and recently. Is there anything I can do to encourage him to eat? I feel terrible returning him, especially if he’s just really young and needs some time but if I wait too long I lose the guarantee and if he does I’m out a good amount of money. Thoughts?

Experience wise, they are my first tortoises but I’ve had reptiles before. I also worked in exotic veterinary medicine for nearly 2 decades so I’m not completely clueless but I need help!

Attached is a photo to show size difference.

 

[TammyJ]

Do you realize that a pair should not be in the same enclosure? If either one is to have the best chance to grow and thrive, they must first be separated from each other. Number 1 priority! To each, his own. Good luck!

 

[TammyJ]

Sorry! I also say welcome to the forum!

 

[TheArmedSparrow]

So no one raises their red footed tortoises together successfully? I’m not asking this sarcastically. I’ve just seen so many successful setups that include more than one. I can easily divide the space and adjust husbandry accordingly. But if they have adequate space and no competition for resources then why couldn’t they be housed together?

 

[SinLA]

@ZEROPILOT ...

Groups - yes. Pairs no. Are there some that have done it successfully? Probably. Doesn't mean its a good way to do it. They are territorial and aggressive and what likes like cute/cuddly behavior in mammals will eventually lead to one terrifying and bullying the other to death.

Also honestly the fact that whoever sold them to you sold them in pairs is a big honking red flag, that plus they look like they already have pyramiding. Keep a close eye and ask lots of questions here. People here can help guide you a lot.

 

[TheArmedSparrow]

I can separate them. It’s not an issue. I think the photo is deceiving. Their shells are completely smooth.

 

[TheArmedSparrow]

Alternatively I can return one under the health guarantee. We just have several acres and eventually would like more than one. I get such conflicting information and am trying my best here.

 

[SinLA]

If you can keep them healthy and separate I, personally, would do so. Returning would not likely have a good life for it

 

[TheArmedSparrow]

If you can keep them healthy and separate I, personally, would do so. Returning would not likely have a good life for it

How long can a hatchling go without eating? When should I be going to the vet? I assume this baby is less than 1 month old since he still has the pip on his beak and remnant of yolk sack and I read recent hatchlings usually don’t eat while they are still absorbing the yolk sack.

I have no issues separating. I’ve kept reptiles before so I have other enclosures to use. The issue is the health guarantee. If I hold out and he dies after the 14 days then I’m out a considerable chunk of money. If it’s just a matter of staying consistent with soaks, feeding and husbandry because he’s just really young then I’ll feel better about holding out.

 

[SinLA]

I don't have experience with babies, unfortunately. @Tom should be able to advise...

 

[Tom]

How long can a hatchling go without eating? When should I be going to the vet? I assume this baby is less than 1 month old since he still has the pip on his beak and remnant of yolk sack and I read recent hatchlings usually don’t eat while they are still absorbing the yolk sack.

I have no issues separating. I’ve kept reptiles before so I have other enclosures to use. The issue is the health guarantee. If I hold out and he dies after the 14 days then I’m out a considerable chunk of money. If it’s just a matter of staying consistent with soaks, feeding and husbandry because he’s just really young then I’ll feel better about holding out.

These babies were not started correctly. They do eat with a yolk sac. They eat as soon as their head sticks out of their egg. There is so much wrong information out there...

I would return the one ASAP. Survival is unlikely given what you've told us.

Pip is what they do when they break out of the egg. Pipping. What you are referring to is the egg tooth. They usually lose these by 6 weeks.

You unfortunately found all sorts of the old wrong care info. I don't have time to go through it all line by line, so here is the short version: Soil or sand should never be used for tortoise substrate, so the Lugarti is a no go. You already heard the pair thing. Groups are okay most of the time. Pairs are not. No basking bulbs for RFs. No colored bulbs (infrared) for any tortoise species.

All of this is usually terribly upsetting to most people and the longer someone has been keeping reptiles, the more incredulous, and mad, people tend to get. I too was taught all this wrong info decades ago and it took more than a decade of sleuthing and experimenting to figure out why it was wrong, and more importantly, what is right. You can have the benefit of all that trial and error for free if you want it.

All of this and so much more is right here:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[TheArmedSparrow]

These babies were not started correctly. They do eat with a yolk sac. They eat as soon as their head sticks out of their egg. There is so much wrong information out there...

I would return the one ASAP. Survival is unlikely given what you've told us.

Pip is what they do when they break out of the egg. Pipping. What you are referring to is the egg tooth. They usually lose these by 6 weeks.

You unfortunately found all sorts of the old wrong care info. I don't have time to go through it all line by line, so here is the short version: Soil or sand should never be used for tortoise substrate, so the Lugarti is a no go. You already heard the pair thing. Groups are okay most of the time. Pairs are not. No basking bulbs for RFs. No colored bulbs (infrared) for any tortoise species.

All of this is usually terribly upsetting to most people and the longer someone has been keeping reptiles, the more incredulous, and mad, people tend to get. I too was taught all this wrong info decades ago and it took more than a decade of sleuthing and experimenting to figure out why it was wrong, and more importantly, what is right. You can have the benefit of all that trial and error for free if you want it.

All of this and so much more is right here:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

So the basking bulb is only there to help keep temps up. It doesn’t get higher than 88 degrees on that end. Additionally I have the attached bulb for night heat. It doesn’t put off a red light. It’s just for heat. I know the red lights damage their eyes but was told the one pictured below does not. I have a ceramic bulb. I can switch to that for night if preferred. The substrate is below a mix of coco coir and peat moss. I did this because I wanted the substrate to hold moisture because all my terrariums have screen tops. I also wanted to be able to grow plants and the substrate seems to serve both purposes. If they burrow it’s in that coco coir/ peat moss mix. I suppose they could get to the reptile mix but they haven’t so far. I added plastic wrap over the screen that isn’t in contact with lights so the moisture isn’t let out. The plan is to move them over to an outside enclosure during the day and only in terrarium at night. But that’s a work in progress for sure.

Pardon my ignorance with the egg tooth. Much of the literature I’ve been reading is from the UK and it refers to that tooth as the “pip” tooth. 🤷‍♀️

Thank you for the resources. It seems that at each turn I get attacked for someone else’s advice. I promise this wasn’t some sort of thoughtless venture on my part. I have a notebook and endless notes. The perfectionist in me wants to get it right.

 

[SinLA]

I would not use moss (impaction risk) and instead have a closed chamber. Much better combo

 

[Tom]

Thank you for the resources. It seems that at each turn I get attacked for someone else’s advice. I promise this wasn’t some sort of thoughtless venture on my part. I have a notebook and endless notes. The perfectionist in me wants to get it right.

I don't think this was thoughtless on your part in any way. Quite the contrary. You have clearly tried to do what is right. The problem, as you have discovered, is that there is so much wrong info out in the world, and no way to tell who to listen to, or why to listen to one source over another. Our only intention here is to help you navigate through the mixed info and prevent the usual catastrophic mistakes that we see so many people make. You will not be attacked here. We don't stand for that. Our goal is to help your tortoise(s) thrive, and make you a happy tortoise keeper.

On to your post:
1. I would not use any sort of peat moss with tortoises. The long fibered stuff will be eaten and it can cause impaction. The dirt-like stuff can burn their plastron. I've seen both repeatedly, so I try to warn people not to use it. A lot of the things that work for other reptiles are different for tortoises. This is one of them. The best substrate for a RF is fine grade orchid bark. This works well because the lower layers can be kept damp to keep humidity, and the upper layers will stay dry to help prevent the shell rot that is so common with this species. Use 3-4 inches of it.
2. Because of the way the generate heat, those heat projectors will cause terrible carapace desiccation, which will cause irreversible pyramiding. Instead I would run two CHEs or RHPs set on a thermostat to spread the heat out over the whole enclosure. Unlike other reptiles and even most tortoises, RF do not need a gradient. They need one uniform temp from around 82-86. 78 is too cool and 88 is getting a bit warm. They do not need a basking lamp.
3. Outside all day is bad for babies. They do better when kept mostly indoors in warm humid conditions. Outside all day will cause pyramiding and slow growth tremendously. I have done multiple side-by-side experiments with clutch mates of several different species with one group inside and one group outside most of the day to determine this fact. Climate and current weather conditions don't matter. This is true even in their native range, as seen here with desert tortoises, and in Senegal with sulcatas, etc... I believe this is due to the secretive nature of wild babies. They hide all the time, or they would be seen by people and eaten by predators. But we don't see them, and not all of them get eaten by predators. The areas where they hide are more closely simulated by our stable, consistent, indoor closed chambers.
4. Having the lights on the outside of the enclosure creates a desiccating, cooling, chimney effect. You need a large closed chamber with the heating and lighting inside until the tortoise is large enough to move outside full time with a heated shelter for nights and colder days.

I hope this info helps.

 

[TheArmedSparrow]

I would not use moss (impaction risk) and instead have a closed chamber. Much better combo

Purchasing a closed chamber isn’t an option at the moment for the indoor enclosure as I’m using my existing terrariums. I’d like to make these work to the best of their ability for the time being. But I will work towards something closed soon. My temps and humidity has been holding steady with the make shift top.

I just changed out the basking bulb for 100w flood bulb. I also took out the projection bulb and put in a 100w ceramic heat bulb instead. I’ll check temps in a few hours to make sure the ceramic bulb isn’t overheating the 75 gallon terrarium.

I soaked the two tortoises separately this afternoon and fed them separately. This will have to do until I pull my extra enclosure out of storage this weekend. I’ll continue to soak twice a day until my husbandry is completely figured out.

The big guy are right away. I was pretty sure the little one was just going to hide but he ate a strawberry top. Then went back to his hide in the middle of the terrarium. Temps at that point are at about 82 degrees.

My husband is returning from being deployed and will be home the entire month of July. He said he will help me make two separate outdoor enclosures with a top do half of the enclosure is shaded and the other half can get sun. I’ll be sure to put appropriate substrate in those boxes. My husband has an idea for installing misters in the boxes as well so there’s added moisture and humidity (but right now humidity is super high outside). He seems to think he can put the misters on a timer so they don’t get a constant mist.

I feel terrible about giving up on the smaller one and even worse about what might happen to him if he goes back. I’ve decided I’ll try to turn things around and eat his cost if he doesn’t name it rather than return him during the 14 day health guarantee period. Seeing him eat gave me hope.

 

[TheArmedSparrow]

I don't think this was thoughtless on your part in any way. Quite the contrary. You have clearly tried to do what is right. The problem, as you have discovered, is that there is so much wrong info out in the world, and no way to tell who to listen to, or why to listen to one source over another. Our only intention here is to help you navigate through the mixed info and prevent the usual catastrophic mistakes that we see so many people make. You will not be attacked here. We don't stand for that. Our goal is to help your tortoise(s) thrive, and make you a happy tortoise keeper.

On to your post:
1. I would not use any sort of peat moss with tortoises. The long fibered stuff will be eaten and it can cause impaction. The dirt-like stuff can burn their plastron. I've seen both repeatedly, so I try to warn people not to use it. A lot of the things that work for other reptiles are different for tortoises. This is one of them. The best substrate for a RF is fine grade orchid bark. This works well because the lower layers can be kept damp to keep humidity, and the upper layers will stay dry to help prevent the shell rot that is so common with this species. Use 3-4 inches of it.
2. Because of the way the generate heat, those heat projectors will cause terrible carapace desiccation, which will cause irreversible pyramiding. Instead I would run two CHEs or RHPs set on a thermostat to spread the heat out over the whole enclosure. Unlike other reptiles and even most tortoises, RF do not need a gradient. They need one uniform temp from around 82-86. 78 is too cool and 88 is getting a bit warm. They do not need a basking lamp.
3. Outside all day is bad for babies. They do better when kept mostly indoors in warm humid conditions. Outside all day will cause pyramiding and slow growth tremendously. I have done multiple side-by-side experiments with clutch mates of several different species with one group inside and one group outside most of the day to determine this fact. Climate and current weather conditions don't matter. This is true even in their native range, as seen here with desert tortoises, and in Senegal with sulcatas, etc... I believe this is due to the secretive nature of wild babies. They hide all the time, or they would be seen by people and eaten by predators. But we don't see them, and not all of them get eaten by predators. The areas where they hide are more closely simulated by our stable, consistent, indoor closed chambers.
4. Having the lights on the outside of the enclosure creates a desiccating, cooling, chimney effect. You need a large closed chamber with the heating and lighting inside until the tortoise is large enough to move outside full time with a heated shelter for nights and colder days.

I hope this info helps.

Yes of course this helps! I’ll work on sorting out the lighting situation. I suppose instead of creating outdoor enclosures we can create an indoor one. It’s not a matter of resources but I’m really trying to use the things I already have including my terrariums, hoods, and lamps from my bearded dragon past. The terrarium I’m currently using opens in the front but has a screen top. If there’s a way to make this work in the meantime that would be great. I’ll change out the substrate this weekend. I can’t believe how much I spent on that stuff. My vet med years told me not to get anything with sand as I’ve seen impacts on in all varieties of reptiles but the person that sold it to me told me if humidity is right then it won’t be an issue. I added coco coir to the top because I became worried about it after I set it up. I added the peat moss on a recommendation from a group on Facebook. That’s easy enough to remove.

I’d like to grow plants like prayer plants, Boston ferns and pothos in the enclosure if I can but I have no experience using orchid bark. I know how most people probably are okay with a big, ugly enclosure just taking over their house, but I’d like to take some enjoyment out of having the tortoises and seeing them in their environment. I’m sure that come across as selfish but I can’t do the big plastic bin enclosures some use. It has to not look like trash, which means money… and why I’d like to make do with what I have until I can afford what I can tolerate.

I appreciate you and your kindness tremendously. Most people either respond in unkind and unhelpful ways or remind me how everything I’m doing isn’t right.

 

[SinLA]

thank you and your husband for your service! @Tom will have something to say about misters, but for what it’s worth I’m glad you are taking a chance on the little one. I hope s/he makes it so it is worth your effort

 

[Krista S]

I’ve just read through this thread and just wanted to say that I’m glad you found the forum while it can still make a big difference for your tortoises. As for the big ugly enclosures you are referring to, I‘ve seen some of the most beautiful enclosures on this forum. I hope you’ve found some of them to use as inspiration. The species you chose has higher humidity requirements than most, so that will limit some options, but there’s definitely a lot of nice large closed chambers on the market that would serve you well and that aren’t awful to look at. Tortoises do require a lot of space…more than a lot of people realize. With 2 redfoots needing their own enclosures, yes, it will take up space. I have a small species (Hermanns) and he and his stuff takes up so much space that he has his own good sized bedroom. It’s just enough space to house his large enclosure and all the other things required for good tortoise husbandry. Oh, and a small bar fridge for his food. Good luck with your journey. I hope you’ll keep updating us on how your 2 little ones are doing.

 

[TheArmedSparrow]

Oh I have two ceramic heat emitters. So are you saying I should put one on each side of the enclosure and add a thermostat to turn them off and on to regulate the temps? Chuck the flood bulb? I think I have a thermostat somewhere, so long as it’s made it the million moves we’ve made since my bearded dragons 15 years ago. I can see how having the open top will make things hard. I have a double lamp on one side with day/night timer for the two bulbs. And I covered the other side with cut vinyl and wrapped it in plastic wrap. It has worked wonders. But if I put a bulb on both sides I’d have to chuck that idea.

 

[TheArmedSparrow]

I’ve just read through this thread and just wanted to say that I’m glad you found the forum while it can still make a big difference for your tortoises. As for the big ugly enclosures you are referring to, I‘ve seen some of the most beautiful enclosures on this forum. I hope you’ve found some of them to use as inspiration. The species you chose has higher humidity requirements than most, so that will limit some options, but there’s definitely a lot of nice large closed chambers on the market that would serve you well and that aren’t awful to look at. Tortoises do require a lot of space…more than a lot of people realize. With 2 redfoots needing their own enclosures, yes, it will take up space. I have a small species (Hermanns) and he and his stuff takes up so much space that he has his own good sized bedroom. It’s just enough space to house his large enclosure and all the other things required for good tortoise husbandry. Oh, and a small bar fridge for his food. Good luck with your journey. I hope you’ll keep updating us on how your 2 little ones are doing.

Hi! Thank you for responding. My kids are almost out of the house. We have space. We have an empty spare room that could be used however I’d like. But ultimately they will be outside. Well, the plan is to convert a greenhouse into a night enclosure then as adults give access to a larger enclosure. We will see how that evolves. We bought land recently so there’s no real limitation on space. Currently we are in the burbs on a 1/4 acre lot but between bedrooms and backyard, we have room until we move in no more than 5 years.