Regarding Shell Rot/Fungus

[fifthdawn]

Yesteryday when I was examining my tortoise, I noticed some yellowish area. It sorta look like splinttered wood. I'm not home right now so I can't provide pictures yet. But I'm guessing its either shell rot or fungus, those are the only possibilities unless thats just how the pastron looks. My other tort has VERY LITTLE yellow stuff as well. I'm not very sure if its any rot or fungus but it won't hurt to apply treatment just incase right?

I just want to be sure on the treatment. I'm gonna pick it up at CVS in a bit.

Its..

1.) Apply and scrub with Betadine 1-2 times right? Only enough to kill fungus since it prevents new tissue growth.

2.) Wash it off with Chlorhexidine.

3.) Apply 1% Clotrimazole anti-fungal cream

Right?

And you can pick all these up at a local pharmacy? Also do you just put the tortoise back in the enclosure?

 

[terryo]

The same thing happened to my Cherry Head from keeping him on wet substrate. I did exactly what you posted, and it cleared up in about two weeks or less. If that is what it is you are lucky you caught it early so I'm sure it will be fine. Try to post a picture so someone can tell you if that's what it is. I put him on moss after I did it, but maybe someone who knows better can tell you different.

 

[cdmay]

(Quote)
"1.) Apply and scrub with Betadine 1-2 times right? Only enough to kill fungus since it prevents new tissue growth.

2.) Wash it off with Chlorhexidine.

3.) Apply 1% Clotrimazole anti-fungal cream

Right?"
Your treatment regime sounds OK to me.
I have received tortoises in the past that had whitish shell fungus on the plastron. It responded quite well to a number of commercially available creams for jock itch or yeast infections....not that would ever have any use for these myself of course. No way.
But anyway, in the two times I had this issue those creams worked like magic.
I would change out the old bedding and replace with new and then while treating the tortoise keep it on a clean and dry substrate.

 

[fifthdawn]

Thanks, I'll give it a try and post pictures later.

I think I screwed up on my setup. I have both the outside and the hide humid and moist. We are suppose to have the hide dry right? If so..I screwed up there. If not, then my inexperience with regulating humidity made it too wet.

 

[terryo]

The hide has to be humid...not moist. The enclosure should be humid, but the substrat should not be wet. This is where I made my mistake. I was spraying like crazy in there and the substrate was always wet. Now I planted all the plants in their little pots, and I only water into the pot. If I spray, I only do the plants. The substrate is always dry. In the hide I spray a little, not much, with "hot" water and mix it up in there....also I will soak the hide log so it is WET. The half log stays wet a long time, keeping the humidity inside the hide, and the enclosure, without it becoming wet in there. WET is what causes the fungus.

 

[llamas55]

wow I didn't think about spraying the half log (which I have, and had to raise the height on).....I am determined to get my substrate dry and find a ton of cheap little plants somewhere. love this chat site, it's getting me on course.

 

[fifthdawn]

Er..I can't get a clear pic and I didn't wanna keep picking them up so heres the clearest I got.

I think you can make it out. Its very fuzzy but it definately looks like fungus or rot

 

[terryo]

I soak the hide in hot water once a week. It stays wet for a couple of days, even if the top of it dries out the inside is still wet for a while.


I really can't see the picture, but read this and it will give you a good example of fungus and how to treat it.
http://redfoots.com/smf/index.php?topic=544.0

 

[fifthdawn]

Yea it looks almost like that. Just less servere.

I couldn't get Betadine. The pharmacy said they don't have any and can order some for me tomorrow. They also said if I realy need it tonight, I can use Hibiclens. They said it works the same as Betadine.

I just applied the Hibiclens for about 20 seconds then rinsed with warm water.

Dried it with napkins and then applied the 1% Clotrimazole anti-fungal cream. Then I put them back in the enclosure. I took away the waterdish so they can't swim in it.

Tomorrows their soaking day so I'll just rinse whatever cream is left and soak them. Hopefully that'll keep em hydrated for awhile. If not, I left a little iceburg lettuce in there. Since it has little nutritional value, I'm hoping it can serve as a source of hydration if they need.

I really dunno what else to do now.

 

[Madkins007]

Hibiclens is more of a skin cleanser, and less of an anti-fungal, like Betadine (although 'betadine' is confusing because it also comes as a skin cleanser, like Hibiclens). Most drug stores carry a generic version of the stuff that works fine.

This sort of plastron rot is basically the same thing as 'immersion foot' in humans. The wetter the substrate AND the longer the contact the more likely you will have it.

We like humid hides- the long time spent in humidity is very good for the tortoises. An interesting option is mentioned in Vinke's "South American Tortoises" in which they sew a handful of moss in linen bags, soak the bags, and hang them in hides or other semi-enclosed areas for humidity without wet substrates.

Another option to consider is to wet the bottom layers and keep the top layers dry. If the habitat is warm enough, the water should evaporate and create humidity above the substrate.

Be careful of too dry of a substrate- if it sucks out the humidity the tortoises won't get as much benefit.

 

[terryo]

Be careful of too dry of a substrate- if it sucks out the humidity the tortoises won't get as much benefit.

My substrate is always dry. I only water and mist the plants. My humidity is always at 78 - 80. Soaking the log hide keeps the humidity in the hide and in the enclosure. I NEVER let him walk on anything wet since last year when he got the fungus.

 

[fifthdawn]

Hmm, its the second day I did the treatment. Is Hibiclens and anti fungal cream not good enough or should I go and get Betadine as well?

EDIT: I need someone to clear up some thoughts. As for humidity, I think I got the whole concept wrong. I thought substrate has to be moist as well, which made sense, I thought the pastron and skin absorbs moisture from the substrate which would benefit the tortoise.

Now I'm getting the idea that its really the water particles in the air that really matters. So..to prevent pyramiding..there must be moisture in the air..because.......the oxygen is absorbed through the shell? Otherwise moist air doesn't seem to make the shell moist in any way.

I'm the type that needs a logical explanation to understand the reason for the enclosure so can I get a scientific explanation for the need of humidity? I'm not doubting that they need it. I get a feeling if I know the explanation, I can alter the environment with logical reason.

 

[terryo]

I don't know where you live but I live in Staten Island, and I'm near the water, so sometimes in the summer it's so humid outside that you could hardly breath....but...the ground is dry. The air should be warm and humid, but the ground shouldn't be wet. This is just what works for me.....NOT saying it is right, just saying it is what works for me. I have no idea about the technical aspect of this....sorry. I always try to simplify things....not make it harder.

 

[fifthdawn]

Yea my campus is right on the lake. I live in Illinois.

It some sense it makes it easier to know why lol. I guess like a calculus equation, you can remember it better and work other stuff into it if you know the logic behind it rather than straight up remembering it.

Either way, I just bought a fogger. The Repti Fogger from Zoomed seems pretty good from most reviews I've read. I don't wanna take chances and count on my spraying to keep humidity up.

 

[Madkins007]

Reptile skin is waterproof- they do not absorb moisture like an amphibian does.

However, they do loose moisture by breathing, urinating, defecating, etc.

By offering humid air, we offset that loss. We also offset the loss by offering drinking and soaking water, moist foods, etc. Tortoises from drier areas manage their moisture loss differently than these tortoises from more humid climates do. For example, where Red-foots and Chacos are found together, the Red-foot is always found in the lower, greener areas.

I have not seen any articles on the mechanics of pyramiding and the effects of hydration, but I would GUESS it has something to do with whether there is enough available moisture where the bones are being 'built'. If there is not enough water, the bones become spongier somehow.

As far as treating the rot- if it is JUST caused by moisture, anti-bacterials and anti-fungals are not a big deal. Keep it clean and dry as much as you can. The stuff you have will work fine.

As for dry substrate- there is a difference between 'dry' and 'sucking moisture out of the air dry'. If your overall humidity is KNOWN to be above the 60% or so, you obviously are not having a big problem with that!

 

[fifthdawn]

Hmm thanks that makes sense.

I think what I'll also do is just pour water in one spot and put the water dish over it. That way water can evaporate from underneath, keep the substrate dry, and the water dish will prevent them from sitting on wet substrate.

Hopefully in a week or less, the shell would start improving. If its not caused by fungus or bacteria, then I don't see the point of reapplying. But I'll do it for few more days and see if it improves just incase it is fungal based and not water based. I don't think the cream will hurt.

 

[terryo]

Here's something a breeder friend told me a while ago. Use a porous water dish..something like a terra cotta plant bottom. You will probably have to fill it more often, but we change the water every day anyway, and the moisture evaporates through it and this also helps keep up the humidity.

 

[K9KidsLove]

Hi...Don't forget that because of their slow metabolisms, tortoises heal much slower than mammals do. You may not see results for a couple of weeks or more, then it will take several more weeks or even months to heal.

You can scrub it daily with Chlorhexadine scrub (anti bacterial/ anti fungal scrub). Then medicate it. When I worked at the vet hospital, he always told people to put paper toweling on the floor of the enclosure til the infection was cleared up.

Did you take him to a vet? Sometimes the vet has to remove the outside layer to expose the infection so it can be debrided before being treated. One of my Russian rescues had an infection so bad that he needed the debriding first. It took nearly a year to grow back the new shell.
Good luck
Patsy

 

[fifthdawn]

Well, it was never severe to begin with so it wasn't so bad. I reapply treatment everyday and I see it slowly going away. Theres only a few spots here and there where the rot used to be. Hopefully by end of the week, it'll heal.

The substrate is still a little moist, but I don't think it was interfering with the healing. I think as long as the cream is on, it should prevent more from growing even with the moisture. I hope not at least since I still seeing improvement overtime. If I compare it to the photo posted, the only yellow parts left is on the bottom near the tail. The rot left a few "cracks" that isn't very wide or deep but hopefully that'll heal over time.

I give them a soak every day since thats the only way I can keep it hydrated. I took away the waterdish since I'm worried the cream will wash off in the waterdish and they end up drinking it. So I wash them every day before I soak them then reapply treatment after soaking and eatting.

The substrate was dry at the start of treatment, but then my tortoises had trouble opening their eyes, so I had to raise back the humidity by moisting the substrate. Now their eyes are fine.