Reptiles Magazine Article

[Tom]

Anybody know Dave Fogel? He wrote an article on breeding redfoots in the February 2010 issue of "Reptiles". I found the article interesting, but sadly, the photo on the title page of the article shows two pretty badly pyramided adults breeding. Just seems like they could have found a better pic to represent such a great species.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Write to the magazine and complain about it. It seems in my opinion that most on staff there don't know anything about chelonia, I complained frequently about different stuff and then just canceled my subscription and stopped reading it...

 

[cdmay]

This is a tough one for me. Dave Fogel and I have been friends for well over 25 years. His article, while decent in content, was a little dated. Dave used some pretty old references and they were not that great to begin with.
As for the appearence of his animals that is a result of where he is...which is northeastern Ohio. Dave is forced to keep his redfoots indoors for most of the year and providing the proper humidity has always been a real challenge for him.
To his credit Dave has bred his redfoots for decades and he has produced many, many nice hatchlings.
Another good friend of mine keeps her redfoots in Quebec and no matter how hard she tries to keep the humidity at a good level she still gets lumpy shells. She also has fed her tortoises a near perfect diet since they were hatchlings and still she gets goofed up looking animals.
One last thing I would say is that Reptiles Magazine is not my favorite publication for a variety of reasons. I know that they do not want in-depth articles and they have dumbed down papers submitted by friends of mine so that they appeal to 'entry level' hobbyists. The result is that you often read overly simplistic articles that do not offer any real advice.

 

[Madkins007]

I am really starting to think that the idea of 'smooth shells' should be knocked down a few pegs in importance with some torts, especially captive raised Red-foots, as long as the overall shell development is good.

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

I saw that issue and was surprised at the pyramiding too. IMO pyramiding from low humidity its not that hard to prevent it. I live in Oregon, its get relatively cold during the winder (30f-45f avg in December & January), and in the winter you can get really chapped because its dry out, but I still can keep my redfoots' hide at 90% humidity, and the rest of the cage pretty humid. However, those RFs were probably raised before the humidity idea was as understood in relation to pyramiding (my understanding is that is "relatively new").

 

[Tom]

This is a tough one for me. Dave Fogel and I have been friends for well over 25 years. His article, while decent in content, was a little dated. Dave used some pretty old references and they were not that great to begin with.
As for the appearence of his animals that is a result of where he is...which is northeastern Ohio. Dave is forced to keep his redfoots indoors for most of the year and providing the proper humidity has always been a real challenge for him.
To his credit Dave has bred his redfoots for decades and he has produced many, many nice hatchlings.
Another good friend of mine keeps her redfoots in Quebec and no matter how hard she tries to keep the humidity at a good level she still gets lumpy shells. She also has fed her tortoises a near perfect diet since they were hatchlings and still she gets goofed up looking animals.
One last thing I would say is that Reptiles Magazine is not my favorite publication for a variety of reasons. I know that they do not want in-depth articles and they have dumbed down papers submitted by friends of mine so that they appeal to 'entry level' hobbyists. The result is that you often read overly simplistic articles that do not offer any real advice.

I completely understand the humidity issue. Until I dedicated an entire room and went to great lengths I could never resolve this either.

---

I am really starting to think that the idea of 'smooth shells' should be knocked down a few pegs in importance with some torts, especially captive raised Red-foots, as long as the overall shell development is good.

Your comment was very thought provoking to me. Pyramiding REALLY REALLY bothers me, but I don't know why. My torts are very healthy and I'm sure its just cosmetic, but...... it kind of feels like a failure of sorts.

My torts don't seem to care one bit!

 

[cdmay]

Doc Cosmonaut is right about Dave's tortoises being raised before pyramiding was considered a big deal or well understood...not that it well understood now. He got his redfoots as hatchlings from **** Goergen back in the late 70s or early 80s I think. In his case the shape of his breeder's shells haven't seemed to hurt them at all and they reproduce like crazy.
But in other cases tortoises with badly pyramided shells also exhibit MBD and other health issues. This leads me to think that there may be different causes or factors that influence a tortoise's carapace shape. There may also be different types of pyramiding too.
I have always felt that there is more to the issue besides humidity with diet, heat and lighting playing at least some part in the equation.

 

[llamas55]

Does someone have Dave Fogel's email address, as my sis is in Toledo OH and I am still looking for CH redfoot #2 and I'll likely be there summer 2010? or maybe he doesn't do CH. I so wish we (the redfoot nuts of the world) could all for one day be in the same room at the same time!

 

[Chewbecca]

I didn't see the article in the mag (which is odd because I have gotten lots of Reptiles magazines this year due to their gecko articles), but I will admit something, that I HATEHATEHATE admitting here: I, too, have issues with humidity for Stagger. I find I am lightly misting him several times a day and tossing around his sphagnum moss.
And it's still either too wet or too dry.

I *think* I have it figured out, now, though. And I think I over-fed him at one point, because it seemed to me that he grew, like, an inch in a week. I'm NOT kidding or exaggerating.
He was at 2 1/2" at 6 months. He didn't seem to be growing. He was healthy, but just not growing much. I was advised to up his food intake SLIGHTLY. I thought I had only slightly upped it, but apparently, and admittedly, I probably more than just slightly upped the food intake. And it caused him to grow...maybe...too much too fast? Which is now believed to have cause some slight...er...lumpage in his carapace (for lack of better term?).
I have since cut back on his food intake, and believe it or not, there actually appears to be improvement in his carapace light it's slowly smoothing back out?
Does that sound crazy???
Stag is only a year old and 3 1/2" long, but he grew that inch SO FAST. I'm not kidding, it was like, in about a week's worth of time.
I remember one day, removing the lids off his enclosure to mist him (which I do several times a day, and I see him several times a day), and going, "Holy crap! Did you grow overnight????"
And I told my husband, "Ben get in there and look at Stagger, tell me what you think."
And he came back and said, "Uh...he looks bigger. What are you feeding him???"

So, yeah.
I didn't want to say that here because I know I probably didn't explain enough or well enough, and I think people are going to come in here to rip into me, but yeah.
I'm in Illinois, and with Stag being small still and inside for a GREAT portion of the year, it's hard to keep humidity levels just right in his enclosure.
But my husband plans to build him a tort table in the spring time (SO EXCITED, it's going in our living room on display so it's going to look NICE), so I'm hoping most issues will correct themselves by then.

 

[-EJ]

I know we've had this discussion before.

Then it hit me today... you're a selfish... you know what.

The best analogy I could think of is a five year old being plopped down on a Harley Sportster... and told to ride.

Let's bring it closer to home... You've got a tortoise keeper who has just bought a Redfoot. I suggest that there is this great paper that would give them some insight into keeping their RF but they are going to have to interpolate using the recorded observations in the wild... you know the new keeper is going to look at me and say... duhhhh.

You do realize that we... the obsessed... who have umteen tortoises... or more... along with other reptiles... are not the normal. The majority of the people have tortoises as pets. The majority does not have a clue that such a subculture as this exists and has always existed. The internet has kind of dropped the curtain and it has also leveled the playing field (to some folks regret).

Reptiles serves a very important niche... it eases the new keeper into this madness. Next... they learn about Radiata along with other club journals... then you can take it up another notch to the peer reviewed journals. Do you see the progression there?

One last thing I would say is that Reptiles Magazine is not my favorite publication for a variety of reasons. I know that they do not want in-depth articles and they have dumbed down papers submitted by friends of mine so that they appeal to 'entry level' hobbyists. The result is that you often read overly simplistic articles that do not offer any real advice.

 

[Bryan]

I know we've had this discussion before.

Then it hit me today... you're a selfish... you know what.

The best analogy I could think of is a five year old being plopped down on a Harley Sportster... and told to ride.

Let's bring it closer to home... You've got a tortoise keeper who has just bought a Redfoot. I suggest that there is this great paper that would give them some insight into keeping their RF but they are going to have to interpolate using the recorded observations in the wild... you know the new keeper is going to look at me and say... duhhhh.

You do realize that we... the obsessed... who have umteen tortoises... or more... along with other reptiles... are not the normal. The majority of the people have tortoises as pets. The majority does not have a clue that such a subculture as this exists and has always existed. The internet has kind of dropped the curtain and it has also leveled the playing field (to some folks regret).

Reptiles serves a very important niche... it eases the new keeper into this madness. Next... they learn about Radiata along with other club journals... then you can take it up another notch to the peer reviewed journals. Do you see the progression there?

One last thing I would say is that Reptiles Magazine is not my favorite publication for a variety of reasons. I know that they do not want in-depth articles and they have dumbed down papers submitted by friends of mine so that they appeal to 'entry level' hobbyists. The result is that you often read overly simplistic articles that do not offer any real advice.

The last thing that I would ever consider Carl to be is selfish, he's about as bad of an example of a selfish person that I can think of.

 

[Yvonne G]

I took it to mean that -EJ was talking to himself when he said, "...you're a selfish..." not Carl.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

Chewbecca, you know you owe us photos of the new, Godzilla version of Mr. Stagger Lee. Get going!

Is there a reason your most important pet is not listed in your signature?

 

[cdmay]

Actually, if EJ was meaning me he may have a point.
I am selfish. I DO want more in-depth writing with more than puff articles.
Ed is right in that there is absolutely a place and a need for entry level information that helps new keepers learn the basics about the animals they wish to keep. But at some point you have to let people know that there is more than the very basics of how to "Keep your new pet" properly. New keepers should understand the responsiblity of taking on the task of caring for such a long lived and demanding animal.
EJ used the analogy of a five year being plopped down on a Harley Sportster. Well guess what? Five year olds don't belong on Harleys. Likewise most casual reptile keepers shouldn't own tortoises either. Raising tortoises, especially hatchlings is difficult and requires that certain parameters are met. The point I was making is that Reptiles Magazine often doesn't drive that fact home. Articles are so simplistic that they do not give the new keeper the realities of what they are getting into.
Last year at the Expo in Daytona I had this lady with a little kid stop by the table I was at and she started inquiring about a hatchling tortoise. I spent many minutes explaining how large it would get, what it would need as it grew, what it would need to eat and so on. She nodded all the while but then while I was putting it into a container for her she said, "Well it will be dead by tomorrow anyway 'cause I'm giving it to him (her little kid who frankly, reminded me of Pugsley from The Addams Family) to play with on the way home". I stopped right then and told her she couldn't buy it and in so many words, to get lost. She lobbed some nice cuss words on me (right in front of poor Pugsley) and stomped off. For me at least there was one less hatchling tortoise that wasn't going to someone who had no business ever owning it.
So yeah, I am selfish. I really only want serious minded people obtaining and caring for tortoises. I do not think they should be popular 'pets'.
Entry level information is great...but you also have to include some meat with the milk.

 

[-EJ]

ahhh... that is so sweet... a fan. I can relate.

I like to think Carl is a friend and I think he knows where I'm coming from.

The idea that it should be written for 'me' is the selfish act. Calling Reptiles magazine dumb down... is actually selfish. The way I read it is that all the people who read Reptiles are... 'dummies'.

As mentioned in my previous post... there are levels in this hobby/passion(if you get to that level).

The last thing that I would ever consider Carl to be is selfish, he's about as bad of an example of a selfish person that I can think of.

 

[Tom]

You guys can have all the debate and discussion about selfishness or dumbed down articles you want. I'll just keep on reading "Reptiles" and anything else reptile related, because I enjoy it and find it informative. I also like posts about big tortoise farms in far off places.

 

[t_mclellan]

"For me at least there was one less hatchling tortoise that wasn't going to someone who had no business ever owning it."

Carl I think that sums up how I feel many times too!
I would rather give away every hatchling to people that I was sure would do right by them than sell one for any amount of money to an idiot!
If only we could tell 100% of the time.

 

[Bryan]

Actually, if EJ was meaning me he may have a point.
I am selfish. I DO want more in-depth writing with more than puff articles.
Ed is right in that there is absolutely a place and a need for entry level information that helps new keepers learn the basics about the animals they wish to keep. But at some point you have to let people know that there is more than the very basics of how to "Keep your new pet" properly. New keepers should understand the responsiblity of taking on the task of caring for such a long lived and demanding animal.
EJ used the analogy of a five year being plopped down on a Harley Sportster. Well guess what? Five year olds don't belong on Harleys. Likewise most casual reptile keepers shouldn't own tortoises either. Raising tortoises, especially hatchlings is difficult and requires that certain parameters are met. The point I was making is that Reptiles Magazine often doesn't drive that fact home. Articles are so simplistic that they do not give the new keeper the realities of what they are getting into.
Last year at the Expo in Daytona I had this lady with a little kid stop by the table I was at and she started inquiring about a hatchling tortoise. I spent many minutes explaining how large it would get, what it would need as it grew, what it would need to eat and so on. She nodded all the while but then while I was putting it into a container for her she said, "Well it will be dead by tomorrow anyway 'cause I'm giving it to him (her little kid who frankly, reminded me of Pugsley from The Addams Family) to play with on the way home". I stopped right then and told her she couldn't buy it and in so many words, to get lost. She lobbed some nice cuss words on me (right in front of poor Pugsley) and stomped off. For me at least there was one less hatchling tortoise that wasn't going to someone who had no business ever owning it.
So yeah, I am selfish. I really only want serious minded people obtaining and caring for tortoises. I do not think they should be popular 'pets'.
Entry level information is great...but you also have to include some meat with the milk.

Agreed Carl, perhaps an article that starts out with the "basics" and progresses with some info for those that aren't telling everyone 2 years later "here's my pet turtle, I think he's a Sulcata turtle". Quite frankly I also agree with what you did re: that woman at the Expo, why send your hatchling to its certain death? Leave the fluff pieces to pet stores care sheets.

ahhh... that is so sweet... a fan. I can relate.

I like to think Carl is a friend and I think he knows where I'm coming from.

The idea that it should be written for 'me' is the selfish act. Calling Reptiles magazine dumb down... is actually selfish. The way I read it is that all the people who read Reptiles are... 'dummies'.

As mentioned in my previous post... there are levels in this hobby/passion(if you get to that level).

The last thing that I would ever consider Carl to be is selfish, he's about as bad of an example of a selfish person that I can think of.

I disagree, Carl wants there to be knowledgeable owners out there that understand their needs, their environment, etc. Sure he'd also like to learn from the article, one of the great things about him is that Carl never comes off as a know it all as he admits to always be learning and that there is more than 1 way to do things.

As for me being "a fan" of Carl's, I respect him very much, he is a helluva guy in my dealings with him and a genuinely good guy. If that makes me "a fan" so be it. I could think of a LOT of people that I'd rather not be fans of than Carl

 

[cdmay]

I might have come off as a little too harsh on Reptiles Magazine which was not my intent. I personally do not care for it for the reasons mentioned but also for the way it seemingly promotes the concept that reptiles (especially turtles and tortoises) make good 'pets'.
But I will admit that after thinking about what EJ said that Reptiles does serve a purpose. New keepers need a place to start and Reptiles can help in that regard. My only wish is that it could be more like the superb magazine Tropical Fish Hobbyist (TFH) in that it would offer useful information for both beginners AND seasoned keepers. Also, TFH candidly advises that many tropical fish species that are commonly found offered for sale at local pet or aquarium shops are not good choices for most people. In fact, I have read articles in TFH where they openly denounce the sale of certain fish because of their poor track record in captivity and low success rate people have in keeping them.
Reptiles would go far in gaining respect if they too would be so honest with what makes a good pet for someone and what doesn't. They could start by offering articles with a little more substance.

 

[Chewbecca]

Chewbecca, you know you owe us photos of the new, Godzilla version of Mr. Stagger Lee. Get going!

Is there a reason your most important pet is not listed in your signature?

I will post new pictures of Your Royal Lumpiness in a bit.

And, EEEK! He's not listed because I wasn't sure if I should label his species latin name or just "redfoot", and if I went with latin, should I go with "Chelonoidis carbonaria" or "Geochelone carbonaria".
Then I decided against using the latin name because it was too controversial as to which term is the "correct" term.
Then I just took a break from here, and forgot completely about it.