Rumor has it . . .

Kapidolo Farms

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Hi,

I recently found several I. forsteni hitting 'for sale' posts around the US market. Some allegedly as long term captives, most well stated as recent imports.

A friend mentioned his source in the Miami area, (a major port of entry) said that USFWS had strongly suggested they not seek to import more at that entry location.

Meanwhile a few importations have occurred on the west coast.

These essentially wild caught adults may be represented as captive bred, and so squeak in on the the variable discretion of the USFWS people who inspect the cargo.

The export quota from Indonesia is a few hundred animals, that is export to all of the world, not just the US. As our USFWS actually implements CITES (relative to most of the rest of the world) this recent few importations represent an good chance to work with an interesting and unusual species.

These past few that I have had contact with adapt pretty quickly to captivity. It is my belief that they represent wild caught individuals held for eggs, then once those eggs are laid, these here now are sent into commerce. That holding is where they become somewhat acclimated to captivity, eating strange things, and abundant human presence.

So, when/if USFWS will 'shut down' these imports is a speculative at best. These are very rare in the wild as they have a very limited range and have been collected for commerce heavily over the past decade. Most that have come in, in the past, were rife with disease issues, no doubt due to the circumstance of their life after capture and before they ended up with a keeper somewhere. These here now seem pretty peppy and have little or no inhibition the eat and 'go about their business' with limited daily intrusion as husbandry.

Some care parameters have come out here on TFO, off and on, I have posted a few 'wild type' articles about them. They are not what I would call extrovert tortoises like redfoots might be considered, and for the most part do not look much different than elongated tortoises. Some differences have come out in a few threads here on TFO.

Just saying, if they have interested you before, now might be a good time to jump in. They are NOT a "starter" tortoise whatever that means.

Will
 

tortadise

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The ones I got from Eric are doing spectacular. They can be very difficult to adjust into captivity being WC specimens. I remember when I would get massive adults 10-13 years ago for less than 100 dollars. These are a very spectacular species for sure Will. Most people do assume the immediate geographical range is all rainforest. However these guys prefer it dry but very humid. Luckily I have built up a very nice diverse group of captives and WC specimens. They will and I'm sure very soon be moved to CITES I and no more export. Very fun species to work with. Males are some of the most aggressive I have seen amongst any other chelonian, while breeding season hits.

I do have to say they have been part of a very nasty virus. Luckily I know the man whom pioneered the study on it. He gave a talk on it at the Daytona show along with other viruses in tortoises. I posted an article on it actually. Systemic adenovirus is the name. Of course adenovirus and iridiovirus have 1000s of strains. Unfortunately it has been a 100% mortality rate found in forstenii.

Good stuff Will. So are you saying that you received some specimens and are now working with forstenii now?


Here is the article pertaining to the adenovirus in forstenii. I have not seen any deceased specimens that have been coming in recently show positive for it. Per the conversation I had with the lab and some associates who have lost some WC recent specimens
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-70536.html
 

EricIvins

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Forstens will still come in through Miami. They come in under farm raised Permits just like 90% of the other Indo animals.....

There are two holding facilities in Sulawesi that deal with Sulawesi Chelonians. They sell to either the Pet trade or Bush Meat markets. Whoever ponies up the money for the animals at the time. They are trying to legitimately breed these animals, but they have a long way to go before that happens. It is possible, as many other Indo facilities do the same. We will never see those animals either way, because of the 4" law. No one is going to sit on Tortoises waiting for them to hit 4", especially with Forsteni. The same goes for Yuwonoi.

Indo will put another moratorium when the new quota rolls out, so quota will be issued but they will not be allowed to be Exported. Indo does this every few years. The same thing happened with Spinosa, Notochelys, etc.

They will not move to CITIES I anytime soon. That will take years. I have and always will question just how "rare" these animals are in Sulawesi. These holding facilities never have less than 200 animals at a time, with people bringing more in on a daily basis. Many people that I know personally have been to Sulawesi had no problems finding Tortoises. Even a few Indonesian members on this forum have talked about how they have collected Forsteni personally and sold them on the open market.

As for the animals that came in before the moratorium was last lifted - They did come in with a nasty Adenovirus that was very contagious. Mortality was not 100%, but 85-90%. Who knows why? Bad year possibly.....

All in all, the sky is not falling with regards to wild caught Forsteni. They will still come in this year until the quota runs out. I'm waiting on another group or two before the year is over. I need more Females for my group, and I'm separating mine by some morphological features. As for USFW - They will always continue to meddle until every other country is so fed up with them, that those countries will issue trade restrictions for live Exports to the US. That is if we have a USFW left at the moment....


Also forgot to say - Both sexes are and will always be aggressive to each other. I just let them go at it until they settle their differences. Sometimes it is one animal, other times the whole group will sit their knocking each other until they get bored with it.....
 

tortadise

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EricIvins said:
Forstens will still come in through Miami. They come in under farm raised Permits just like 90% of the other Indo animals.....

There are two holding facilities in Sulawesi that deal with Sulawesi Chelonians. They sell to either the Pet trade or Bush Meat markets. Whoever ponies up the money for the animals at the time. They are trying to legitimately breed these animals, but they have a long way to go before that happens. It is possible, as many other Indo facilities do the same. We will never see those animals either way, because of the 4" law. No one is going to sit on Tortoises waiting for them to hit 4", especially with Forsteni. The same goes for Yuwonoi.

Indo will put another moratorium when the new quota rolls out, so quota will be issued but they will not be allowed to be Exported. Indo does this every few years. The same thing happened with Spinosa, Notochelys, etc.

They will not move to CITIES I anytime soon. That will take years. I have and always will question just how "rare" these animals are in Sulawesi. These holding facilities never have less than 200 animals at a time, with people bringing more in on a daily basis. Many people that I know personally have been to Sulawesi had no problems finding Tortoises. Even a few Indonesian members on this forum have talked about how they have collected Forsteni personally and sold them on the open market.

As for the animals that came in before the moratorium was last lifted - They did come in with a nasty Adenovirus that was very contagious. Mortality was not 100%, but 85-90%. Who knows why? Bad year possibly.....

All in all, the sky is not falling with regards to wild caught Forsteni. They will still come in this year until the quota runs out. I'm waiting on another group or two before the year is over. I need more Females for my group, and I'm separating mine by some morphological features. As for USFW - They will always continue to meddle until every other country is so fed up with them, that those countries will issue trade restrictions for live Exports to the US. That is if we have a USFW left at the moment....


Also forgot to say - Both sexes are and will always be aggressive to each other. I just let them go at it until they settle their differences. Sometimes it is one animal, other times the whole group will sit their knocking each other until they get bored with it.....




Good to know Eric. I do want to clarify the mortality statement after reading your response. This was the percentage of the animals that were tested through that lab. So yes I suppose my stating 100% should of been more clarified. Wouldnt want the wrong impression of someone reading that. It is a nasty virus indeed however.

I do like the breeding facility success in indo as you said. But unfortunately the USDA and the lovely 4" law ruins that. But at least its not wild collected and only wild collected. Seems to be better business model on their end.

Kinda off topic but when does the quota get filled and or released. Calender year end or is it fiscal on a certain start date? I ask since we are approaching a new calender year and would like to add a few more Wild specimens in the next month or so when finances are better for me.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Not rumors, but facts.

No way to account for suitcase exports, this is the list of legal exports. A past student of mine who works in the official capacity to determine these quotas (the guy that tells the CITES representative how many should be allowed for export) said that these are supposed to be captive bred in licensed facilities for export only. That past student would rather host visiting scientist to study these tortoises, than be 'motivated' to increase the export quota. A buck is made hosting scientist, it's not all for the 'greater good', but that is the struggle for the export quota.

All the individuals that I have seen are clearly not captive born or bred, but wild caught adults or sub adults. The images Eric shows in his for sale posts are wild caught adults, as are the many other images I have found in 'for sale' posts throughout the US.

This 'abuse' of the system, and that USFWS will 'work with' other governments and comply with their interests make it a reasonable bet that their importation into the US will be halted.

(Just to be clear, the "Rumor" is that this is already being informally implemented, and might go to a 'letter/memo of understanding' distributed to all import ports.)

That is exactly what halted the importation of Pancake tortoises for many years. In that case the abuse was a an export document being altered from 20 to 200, or was it 200 to 2000?

The I. forstenii arrive here based on false statements on the export documents, they are listed as captive bred - they are not.

Export quotas from Indonesia are as follows . . .
2013 - 270
2012 - 270
2011 - 270
2010 – 270
2009 – 270
2008 – 270
2007 – 475
2006 – 475
2005 – 475
2004 – 475
2003 – 500
2002 – 400
2001 – 450
2000 – 450
1999 – 450
1998 – 475
1997 – 900

Some sources suggest prior years are considered mingled with the other Indotestudo species.

Guess what the trend indicates?

Will
 

Benjamin

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Would like to know more about them being "common". Very different to what I know currently.

How do you remove large numbers of animals from the wild without affect?

And I.forstenii can and will inflict injury on one another.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Benjamin,

I have not been to Indonesia, I have read reports published by native and visiting field workers, none of those reports even suggest localized abundance. No field work done has been that extensive though. I do not think they are considered common, like say Cuora amboinensis.

Of those that I got to look at I noticed they are perfectly willing to bite fingers and hands, only experinced that before with Manouria.

They have an aggressiveness to them, for sure.

Will
 

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Bleeding from the seem between the scutes. This female was paired up for one day when this happened.
 

Anthony P

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No Will,

Ben doesn't have that tortoise yet. It has been in quarantine for the last 6 or so months. A small part of that 6 months was with me, and the larger remainder of the quarentine has been with a great chelonian vet.

She will be joining Ben soon though, since she has been given a clean bill of health.

That photo is scary Ben. I'm sure you've taken good care of her since that incident Ben. I guess that's the price we, and female forstenii, have to make when it is so imperative to create new offspring.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I'm not sure that "scary" captures anyones perception of the rigourous mating of a male tortoise, maybe. I did find the cavalier idea of another post's narrative that the tortoises will sort it out with a period of tussles a bit scary though. But if it is a large enclosure with much cover, well that would probably get more of that important breeding going on too.

I've seen in some of Ben's informative posts regarding this species that he feeds, at least caught in a few images, Mazuri to them.

Anthony, what has been the diet of the video female as she has gone through the qurantine process, beside leafs from women with red nail polish? One zoo keeper I worked with did that same thing, stimulate feeding with bright red nail polish finger tips.

Have you found they are day feeders, night, or crepuscular?

Will
 

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Lately, I always find forsteni to be pretty abundant in numbers under sale from both pet and online shops. Most look like wild caught, but some babies are also on sale. I believe some hobbyists have successfully breed them, so I won't really worry of them being rare here.

And yes, I see my 5" also being aggressive to each others. I just let them do their things and eventually they will stop and sleep closed together.
 

tortadise

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Will said:
I'm not sure that "scary" captures anyones perception of the rigourous mating of a male tortoise, maybe. I did find the cavalier idea of another post's narrative that the tortoises will sort it out with a period of tussles a bit scary though. But if it is a large enclosure with much cover, well that would probably get more of that important breeding going on too.

I've seen in some of Ben's informative posts regarding this species that he feeds, at least caught in a few images, Mazuri to them.

Anthony, what has been the diet of the video female as she has gone through the qurantine process, beside leafs from women with red nail polish? One zoo keeper I worked with did that same thing, stimulate feeding with bright red nail polish finger tips.

Have you found they are day feeders, night, or crepuscular?

Will

Mazuri Croc chow(48% protein) works great, but sparingly of course. Seems your colleague was correct. The wild specimens I have tend to favor brightly colored fruits or flowers. So that being said, I make a salad for them. Tomatoes, bell peppers, mangos, papaya, dragonfruits, mixed with a variety of greens and mushrooms. On the colored items, I dice small bits just to add the color aspect of interest to them.

In regards to being kept in a very sheltered or planted environment to "save" or limit the damage breeding rituals. I would say the males or females can still find one another. These guys are very good at using their sensory skills. When one of my males gets stimulated by an afternoon shower in the greenhouse, he will find the female even in the thicket of plants in the enclosure. So the best thing was to separate them.
 

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