Shell has gotten soft

[nightoff]

I have a two month old red foot that I've had since it was just a day or two old. (still had its egg tooth). I noticed her shell seemed to have more give on the bottom, all around and if I pinch on the sides where the top and bottom shells meet, there is a little give. It is definitely softer than when I got her.

I have been keeping her inside, in an under the bed plastic container, approx 2' x 3', with mulch and spagnum moss as the substrate. I keep the substrate damp but not wet. The humdity runs between 75-90%. The temps are generally 75 to 80 at night and up to 90-95 in the basking spot during the day. Otherwise the rest of the enclosure is around 80-85 during the day. I have been using calcium w/o D sprinkled on her food every other day or so. Feeding mostly greens, a little fruit, and egg and turkey one time each. I have a Zoo Med 50 florescent tube for the uva/uvb on during the day and try to get her outside on the weekends for a few hours for some sun. I've been resting the Zoo Med on the edge of the tub, about 5 inches above the substrate and am thinking that it is too low. Maybe she is either spending too little time under the bulb to get the uvb she needs or it is too low and is bad for her? She's been eating and drinking well. I put a cuttlebone in her enclosure yesterday and she went to town on it. Yesterday and today I have her outside in her tub, with a mesh top, all day to try to get a lot of sun. I have a three year old red foot that lives outside year round that semms to be doing very well.

Any thoughts anyone has would be appreciated.

 

[Tom]

Odd. This doesn't add up. You should not be having this problem with what you are doing.

The cuttle bone thing is telling though. What greens are you feeding? With the amount of UV and calcium you provide I would expect your tortoise to ignore a cuttle bone. Since your UV and calcium supplementation routine sound more than adequate, I suspect a dietary problem. I might suspect "hatchling failure syndrome" if you had a species that is erroneously thought of as a "desert" species, but people usually start redfoots with good hydration and humidity, so it is not common for them.

 

[nightoff]

Tom,
I am sure of the humidity. I put her in her water bowl every so often and she drinks about half the time. Other than that I don't soak her. Now I have to admit, the first few weeks, I wasn't supplementing with calcium or using the uva/uvb light, then realized I needed to. The greens I have used are kale, romaine, red leaf letuce, celery tops, cucumber, red adn yellow peppers, carrot a few times, a little spinach, broccoli once, red cabbage twice, radish once, I tried a soffened timothy hay biscuit but she didn't eat it. I've fed her mustard greens the last couple of days. I'll try the natural light and cuttlebone for a couple of weeks and then see if she's getting better. If not, I guess a trip to the vet is in order. At what age will she stop hiding most of the day?

Any other thoughts are welcome.

 

[nightoff]

Oops

 

[stojanovski92113]

Hello, babies sleep & hide quite a bit, they eventually become more active, & personally will start to come out. I would soak your tortoise daily & if possible put your tortoise outside for the natural sunlight. I have 2 baby cherryheads & I live in Michigan which is freezing now. I soak them daily with luke warm water & they have a MVB and CHE. I'm not sure what's going on as it sounds like you have things going good. But as Tom stated, "hatchling failure syndrome" could be an indicator. Let's hope not! I believe natural sunlight & calcium will make so much difference. Good luck & keep us updated

 

[Tom]

Tom,
I am sure of the humidity. I put her in her water bowl every so often and she drinks about half the time. Other than that I don't soak her. Now I have to admit, the first few weeks, I wasn't supplementing with calcium or using the uva/uvb light, then realized I needed to. The greens I have used are kale, romaine, red leaf letuce, celery tops, cucumber, red adn yellow peppers, carrot a few times, a little spinach, broccoli once, red cabbage twice, radish once, I tried a soffened timothy hay biscuit but she didn't eat it. I've fed her mustard greens the last couple of days. I'll try the natural light and cuttlebone for a couple of weeks and then see if she's getting better. If not, I guess a trip to the vet is in order. At what age will she stop hiding most of the day?

Any other thoughts are welcome.

No one can say about personality stuff. Some stay shy, some transition, and some are bold from day one. Hand feeding and interaction tend to make them less shy sooner.

There is nothing a vet can do about this.

All those grocery store greens are not the best diet, but someone with more RF experience should advise you on that. THey are not one of the species I usually work with.

 

[stojanovski92113]

Please check out the tortoise library for ideas for feeding your little one as well. You stated you have a 3 yr old tortoise. Can you tell us what you feed that one? I feed my torts endive, escarole, spring mix, dandelions, mazuri, kale, radicchio, mustard greens, hibiscus leaves & flowers, romaine, red leaf lettuce, romaine, turnips, & occasional fruit (raspberries, strawberries, kiwi, mangos). I don't over do friut do to the increase risk of parasites. I'm sure everyone's opinions are different, but I never feed much protein to my tortoises ever...oohhh I also have 4 Redfoots that are a bit older. I would say that flowers and leaves are a good part of their diet. When I do give protein it's boiled chicken, hard boiled eggs, & pill bugs.

 

[zenoandthetortoise]

Hi there. I have a two year old redfoot that was 40 gr on arrival, complete with egg tooth. If you have limited forage available, I'd replace the current greens with mustard, dandelion, collards, escarole, raddichio, and turnip greens, all of which are available in supermarkets. I cover with Herbal Hay from Tortoise Supply and mix in chopped wheat grass for extra fiber. I add moistened Mazuri three meals a week and mix supplements to that. Opuntia, raspberries and papaya are treats I feed by hand which is an incentivized interaction and are all on the correct calcium/phosphorus ratio. For protein I offer a hard boiled egg in shell every two weeks.
Sounds like your lighting is about right, though without a meter I'd focus more on the diet and opportunity for direct sunlight. As mentioned, soaking everyday has worked well for me.
Best of luck

 

[nightoff]

The three year old eats essentially the same as the baby. I've had her longer so she's had more variety like timothy hay with mango, bananas, dandelion greens, beat tops, weeds from the yard and other things I can't think of at the moment. Other than a week or so during old snaps, she lives outside year-round.

Today I fed the baby collard greens with calcium and a tiny bit of Herptivite and she ate a bit of a Masuri pellet. She drank a bit this morning. I had her outside a couple of times for 30 min to an hour. We had a lot of rain today. She chowed down on some hibiscus leaves. Unfortunately I work and if it might rain, I can't leave her outside in the tub all day (don't want it to fill with water). She is still eating and acting normally as far as I can tell. She weighed 51g last Monday and weighed the same today. Any ideas on how likely it is that she may survive if I can get her diet and sunlight right?

 

[nightoff]

Just an update and request for opinions. The baby is now three and half months old and everything is still the same. The shell is still soft but not any softer, she still eats like a champ and drinks regularly. I try to get her outside a few times a week for 30 minutes to an hour. The uva/uvb tube light is on 12 hrs a day. The last 12 days, she's been on a mix of collard greens, wheat grass, hibiscus leaves, banana leaves, and carrot. I was out of town so she was with a babysitter. She weighed 57grams on Sunday. Is it time to visit the vet?

 

[Yvonne G]

It might be time to buy a UVB meter and see if your light is actually putting out any UVB. As you know, the calcium won't work to make the shell harder unless it is combined with UVB.

 

[nightoff]

Yvonne, you were right. I took the baby in to the vet yesterday because her shell is still soft. She acts fine and eats but...... So the vet pronounced her in good health and likes what I'm feeding and such. No parasites. But when he tested the uva/uvb bulb, it was putting out essentally NO uvb despite the fact that it is fairly new. The vet thinks that is the problem. I bought a mercury vapor bulb from that vet that has been tested and hopefully she will soon start to show improvement. I will also work on getting her outside longer on the weekends. In another couple months she will be able to live outside permanently and this ubv issue will disappear.

 

[keepergale]

That is good news. Sounds like a happy ending. I had a hatchling that was not growing and staying somewhat soft in spite of good conditions. I began a dietary supplement and had good results in a short period of time. Obviously anecdotal but here is the product I used.

 

[nightoff]

Thanks, I will keep the name handy in case I need it in the future. The vet was amazed that she was doing so well despite the soft shell. I just hope that increasing her uvb exposure fixes the problem. Even though she seems to be thriving despite it, longterm it can't be good for her shell or her bones.

 

[leopard777]

which brand uva/uvb bulb you using which didnt produce uvb ?

 

[nightoff]

Exoterra 5.0 18inch fluorescent tube. My vet sells the mercury vapor 5.0 for $10, so I'll buy from them from now on.

 

[Tom]

Exoterra 5.0 18inch fluorescent tube. My vet sells the mercury vapor 5.0 for $10, so I'll buy from them from now on.

10.0 bulbs put off very little UV and must be no more than 10-12" from the tortoise to be effective. 5.0 bubls put off almost no UV at all, which your vets UV meter confirmed.

I have never heard of any MVB for $10. Can you share with us which one it is? This sounds very suspect. They sell several types of MVB at hardware stores for around that price, but these are not designed or tested to be used over reptiles. This concerns me...

 

[nightoff]

I will look as soon as I get home and let you know. I may be mistaken on the specifics but it is from a common reptile supplies brand. I noticed it seemed cheap but figured maybe they buy in bulk and try to get people to buy them so that they know they are using a bulb has been tested and works. The MVB bulbs put out very little heat, correct?

 

[nightoff]

Ok. Tom, you were right. It was too good to be true. The bulb is a ZooMed Reptisun 5.0 compact florescent. Darn. I guess it's back to the pet store tomorrow to look for a mercury vapor.