Sick sulcata

Cloverhand

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My 8 month old sulcata has become sick over the past week now. I took him to the vet in my area who works with reptiles (after reading some other sick sulcata forums I am questioning what he told me).

Here is the issue:

1: his food intake decreased drastically and he became very lethargic which did get better. Since going to the vet and trying to give him the critical care supplement that he told me to give, his food intake has nearly stopped again. He told me to syringe feed but prying his mouth open seems wrong.

2: my tortoise (Pixel) has not gained weight since April (he told me this could be ok) i feel it is malnuishment. His shell is also still soft (he did say not ok) despite every attempt to follow the feed suggests in other forums from Tom and calcium supplement twice a week. So needless to say he weight 54g.

3: if syringe feeding is ok. How the heck do you do this?

4: the things I know you wanna know
Temp in basking area is 90°f daytime, 85°f in the cooler side. At night it is 80°f. I used a uva/uvb heat light and a ceramic daytime and ceramic coil night time.

Humidity is low and I have found misters and fog machines but I need to turn the enclosure into a closed system also which I haven't figured the best way to do either. Humidity runs between 50-55%.

Substrate is coconut coir. I live in Harrisburg PA area so it is too cold to go outside right now so he does not get out currently. He does have water in the enclosure and he has two hides.

My biggest concern is that I am going to make him worse by trying to make him better. So any suggestions to get him healthy again I will take.
 

Tom

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  1. Basking area needs to get closer to 100.
  2. Are you soaking daily? You should be.
  3. He is not eating for a reason. Force feeding will not help. It will usually make things worse. I've never seen this do anything good.
  4. Most vets don't know much about tortoises, and very little will help a baby. Almost everything they want to do makes things worse.
  5. 54 grams at 8 months old and a soft shell indicates "Breeder Failure Syndrome". After 8 months, these things could also be the result of poor diet, lack of UV, lack of hydration and lack of correct temps. Where did you get this baby and how was it started? Lets eliminate that first. If the breeder started it well, then we will have to look at the care the baby received after you got it.
  6. What foods have you been offering? What type of UV bulb are you using? Is it a mercury vapor bulb? Some people are saying that those are only making UV for 3 months now. Do you have a UV meter?
That is a lot of questions so far… Your answers can start to eliminate variables, or offer more clues to what is going on. Lets start with these before progressing further.
 

Cloverhand

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  1. Basking area needs to get closer to 100.
  2. Are you soaking daily? You should be.
  3. He is not eating for a reason. Force feeding will not help. It will usually make things worse. I've never seen this do anything good.
  4. Most vets don't know much about tortoises, and very little will help a baby. Almost everything they want to do makes things worse.
  5. 54 grams at 8 months old and a soft shell indicates "Breeder Failure Syndrome". After 8 months, these things could also be the result of poor diet, lack of UV, lack of hydration and lack of correct temps. Where did you get this baby and how was it started? Lets eliminate that first. If the breeder started it well, then we will have to look at the care the baby received after you got it.
  6. What foods have you been offering? What type of UV bulb are you using? Is it a mercury vapor bulb? Some people are saying that those are only making UV for 3 months now. Do you have a UV meter?
That is a lot of questions so far… Your answers can start to eliminate variables, or offer more clues to what is going on. Lets start with these before progressing further.
1: I can get the basking area warmer
2: yes he is soaked every day. He also put himself in his water in addition to me soaking him (or was this decreased)
3: I had a feeling this was all wrong and he was wrong to tell me to force feed. It made everything worse the one time I tried.
4 : I got him from a breeder at a local reptile expo. I am going again this weekend and can get more information on his care before me since I know they will be there.
5 : when I first got him store bought romaine and spring mix. I switch him to grass clippings, dandelion greens, clover and that was all he would eat. I read something you posted on food but he would eat literally nothing but that. He stopped eating those completely so I went back to romaine and spring mix in an attempt to get him to eat anything but plan to mix the others back in once I get him eating. I am desperate to keep him eating. I just started offering him some zucchini to get him interested in food since he likes that which has worked a little this past week. I use the zoomed powersun which I had to look and it is a mercury vapor bulb. I will buy a new one. They are very expensive though and to obly last 3 months, is there anything cheaper you have found works just as well? I do not have a UV meter but I can add that to my list.

I mentioned in my known problems the humidity. Have you ever used a mister or fogger machine to maintain humidity? I am curious if this will cause more issues than it helps.

Thank you so much for responding.
 

Tom

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5 : when I first got him store bought romaine and spring mix. I switch him to grass clippings, dandelion greens, clover and that was all he would eat. I read something you posted on food but he would eat literally nothing but that. He stopped eating those completely so I went back to romaine and spring mix in an attempt to get him to eat anything but plan to mix the others back in once I get him eating. I am desperate to keep him eating. I just started offering him some zucchini to get him interested in food since he likes that which has worked a little this past week. I use the zoomed powersun which I had to look and it is a mercury vapor bulb. I will buy a new one. They are very expensive though and to obly last 3 months, is there anything cheaper you have found works just as well? I do not have a UV meter but I can add that to my list.

I mentioned in my known problems the humidity. Have you ever used a mister or fogger machine to maintain humidity? I am curious if this will cause more issues than it helps.

I don't want to miss anything, so I'll number my responses again:
  1. Most tortoises won't eat new stuff without a long introduction process. This is especially true if the breeder didn't introduce lots of new foods early on. You have to cut up a tiny portion of the new stuff and mix it in with the pile of chopped up favorite greens. It takes a long time, but once they are about 8-10", they get hungry and a lot less picky. I don't think this is your issue.
  2. I prefer to use florescent tubes for UV, and regular 65 watt incandescent flood bulbs from the hardware store for heat. The newer HO tube bulbs produce a lot of UV and can be mounted higher up than the old T8 style. Here is the UV meter to get: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html Having a meter is the only way to know what your bulbs are doing, and I consider these essential equipment for people who live in areas where the tortoise will be indoors all winter long.
  3. Misters and foggers don't work well in my experience if you don't "stop the leak". As long as that top is wide open, you are going to be losing all your heat and humidity. Closed chambers are the way to go.
I hate to say it, but I suspect that this is your issue: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/
When you learn more from the breeder, we might know one way or the other. Ask him/her:
  1. What incubation media was used?
  2. How long after hatching did the baby stay in the incubator?
  3. Was a brooder box used? For how long? Or straight from the incubator into an enclosure?
  4. How often was the hatchling soaked?
  5. What foods were offered in the days and weeks after hatching?
  6. What substrate was in the babies first enclosure?
 

Cloverhand

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I don't want to miss anything, so I'll number my responses again:
  1. Most tortoises won't eat new stuff without a long introduction process. This is especially true if the breeder didn't introduce lots of new foods early on. You have to cut up a tiny portion of the new stuff and mix it in with the pile of chopped up favorite greens. It takes a long time, but once they are about 8-10", they get hungry and a lot less picky. I don't think this is your issue.
  2. I prefer to use florescent tubes for UV, and regular 65 watt incandescent flood bulbs from the hardware store for heat. The newer HO tube bulbs produce a lot of UV and can be mounted higher up than the old T8 style. Here is the UV meter to get: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html Having a meter is the only way to know what your bulbs are doing, and I consider these essential equipment for people who live in areas where the tortoise will be indoors all winter long.
  3. Misters and foggers don't work well in my experience if you don't "stop the leak". As long as that top is wide open, you are going to be losing all your heat and humidity. Closed chambers are the way to go.
I hate to say it, but I suspect that this is your issue: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/
When you learn more from the breeder, we might know one way or the other. Ask him/her:
  1. What incubation media was used?
  2. How long after hatching did the baby stay in the incubator?
  3. Was a brooder box used? For how long? Or straight from the incubator into an enclosure?
  4. How often was the hatchling soaked?
  5. What foods were offered in the days and weeks after hatching?
  6. What substrate was in the babies first enclosure?
23 : thanks, I will look for those lights instead and the meter.

24 : I want to turn the enclosure into a closed system for humidity sake because my home is very dry and I cannot maintain a high humidity. I will keep looking into this.

So reading this I am assuming there isn't much I can do if breeder failure is the case? I will ask the breeder everything Saturday morning to find out.
 

Tom

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23 : thanks, I will look for those lights instead and the meter.

24 : I want to turn the enclosure into a closed system for humidity sake because my home is very dry and I cannot maintain a high humidity. I will keep looking into this.

So reading this I am assuming there isn't much I can do if breeder failure is the case? I will ask the breeder everything Saturday morning to find out.

I have built several closed chambers, but I'm finding it easier and better to just buy them now: http://www.apcages.com/home/terrestrial/terrestrial.htm

If the breeder damaged this babies kidneys by keeping it too dry when it hatched, then no, there is nothing you or any vet can do about it. The thing is, some of them pull through and eventually end up just fine, while others live for a few weeks or months and then die. All you can do is offer the best conditions possible and hope for the best.
 

Cloverhand

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I have built several closed chambers, but I'm finding it easier and better to just buy them now: http://www.apcages.com/home/terrestrial/terrestrial.htm

If the breeder damaged this babies kidneys by keeping it too dry when it hatched, then no, there is nothing you or any vet can do about it. The thing is, some of them pull through and eventually end up just fine, while others live for a few weeks or months and then die. All you can do is offer the best conditions possible and hope for the best.
Thank you for all of the resources. I will look into everything and do what I can for him, including questioning the breeder. I had a feeling that might be the case.
 

the Turtle Shepherd

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is the shell soft top and bottom?Metabolic Bone Disease (Soft/Deformed Shells) inTortoise Shells. Metabolic bone disease (MBD), also known as nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP), can be a common aliment of pet tortoises. This is due to a lack of calcium in the diet or a problem absorbing dietary calcium. mainly meaning your tortoise is not getting enough vitamin D aka sunshine to absorb the calcium he gets.

is the shell only soft on the bottom? it can be a shell rot, which is easily treatable, in most cases.
 

Big Charlie

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is the shell soft top and bottom?Metabolic Bone Disease (Soft/Deformed Shells) inTortoise Shells. Metabolic bone disease (MBD), also known as nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP), can be a common aliment of pet tortoises. This is due to a lack of calcium in the diet or a problem absorbing dietary calcium. mainly meaning your tortoise is not getting enough vitamin D aka sunshine to absorb the calcium he gets.

is the shell only soft on the bottom? it can be a shell rot, which is easily treatable, in most cases.
It is my understanding that sulcatas aren't prone to shell rot.
 

Cloverhand

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is the shell soft top and bottom?Metabolic Bone Disease (Soft/Deformed Shells) inTortoise Shells. Metabolic bone disease (MBD), also known as nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP), can be a common aliment of pet tortoises. This is due to a lack of calcium in the diet or a problem absorbing dietary calcium. mainly meaning your tortoise is not getting enough vitamin D aka sunshine to absorb the calcium he gets.

is the shell only soft on the bottom? it can be a shell rot, which is easily treatable, in most cases.
The shell is soft on the bottom only (never hardened since I got him) and on the sides toward the bottom. His shell is not deformed and not soft along the top.
 

the Turtle Shepherd

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so is it just soft on the bottom? use iodine and cover it with a thin layer, shell rot in babies is very different from adult version. if this is the case, your substrate is too wet. use iodine once a day for three days and then stop for a week. repeat again. see if this help, reduce the wetness. what is the color of the belly, can you describe it, it should be perfectly golden.
 

Tom

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so is it just soft on the bottom? use iodine and cover it with a thin layer, shell rot in babies is very different from adult version. if this is the case, your substrate is too wet. use iodine once a day for three days and then stop for a week. repeat again. see if this help, reduce the wetness. what is the color of the belly, can you describe it, it should be perfectly golden.

Again, sulcatas are not prone to shell rot, and there is nothing here to indicate that shell rot is the problem. Shell rot is a fungal infection on the surface of the plastron, and is common in red footed tortoises, but not most other species. Shell rot does not soften the carapace.

Further this member has an open topped enclosure, so the substrate is likely staying too dry.

The big clue here is 54 grams at 8 months. That is not caused by shell rot.

I know you mean well, but its not helpful when people give advice that is off base, and in areas where they have no experience.
 

Yvonne G

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My thought on the plastron was rather than shell rot, it might be the scar from the umbilical, where he was attached to the yolk. Besides that, shell rot doesn't cause the plastron to be soft. That's just a baby thing. It will firm up over time, with calcium and UVB.
 

the Turtle Shepherd

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i raised a sulcata from a baby and still have him and he was not sick a second in his life, so i would say it qualifies me as having experience, so let's not throw comments like that that are short of shut up, having said that here is the best guess from Reptile magazine:
Metabolic Bone Disease (Soft/Deformed Shells) in Tortoise Shells
Metabolic bone disease (MBD), also known as nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP), can be a common aliment of pet tortoises. This is due to a lack of calcium in the diet or a problem absorbing dietary calcium.

Tortoises need exposure to ultraviolet radiation A and B (UVA/B) in order to manufacture vitamin D3 from vitamin D2. Vitamin D3 is necessary for calcium in the diet to be absorbed through the gastrointestinal tract. In the wild, the sun provides ultraviolet light. Wild tortoises bask 8 to 14 hours/day and receive the necessary UVA/B rays in order to absorb calcium from food. Sunlight that shines through a glass or plastic window or cage is blocked from providing the necessary radiation.

Tortoises fed a diet low in calcium, or those who cannot absorb calcium well, usually first show a soft shell, especially if they are a juvenile. Baby tortoises naturally have a semi-soft shell after hatching, but it usually hardeners by 6 to 8 months of age. In calcium-deficient tortoises, the tortoise grows, but the shell does not. This causes the shell to become deformed and often the tortoise looks too big for its shell. It become weak, and eventually has trouble walking, due to soft bones. The soft bones can easily fracture, causing further problems. If untreated, the tortoise will eventual die. This is often a slow, painful death.

Metabolic bone disease can be prevented in several ways. First, a full-spectrum light source is needed in indoor enclosures. Those tortoises kept in outdoor pens get full sunlight as long as the pen/cage is placed where the sun shines. If they are housed indoors during the winter, provide the right lights. These can be incandescent or fluorescent, and they should be placed onto of the tank without any glass or plastic blocking it from the tortoise (screening is OK). The light should be as close as possible, between 12 and 18 inches away from the turtle. You want it close, but not close enough to where thermal burns can occur. Leave these full-spectrum bulbs on 12 to 14 hours/day, and change them every six to 10 months; their UVB output lessens over time.

The diet should be on rich in calcium. Beet tops and dark, leafy greens are an excellent source of calcium (iceberg or Romaine lettuce are not). A powdered vitamin/mineral supplement can be dusted over the food to ensure added calcium. These can be purchased at many pet-supply stores and online.

Treatment should first be a trip to your herp veterinarian. He/she can assess the degree and severity of the MBD, usually by using a radiograph to see if pathologic fractures have occurred. A blood panel is sometimes run, making sure other body systems have not been affected.

Husbandry and diet need to be corrected if inadequate. Sometimes oral liquid calcium is prescribed in addition to the above recommendations.

Tortoises severely malformed from MBD may never look normal. The misshapen shell may never appear like that of a healthy tortoise, especially if this has been a long-term condition.

BACK TO ME: i always say but no one listens: sulcatas are not for cold and dark states, i advise you send your baby of to a california or arizona and some like that state before it is too late. if it is MBD he will slowly and painfully die, or if you are willing to invest, it is in fact reversible, vitamin d, do what you can:)
 

Tom

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i raised a sulcata from a baby and still have him and he was not sick a second in his life, so i would say it qualifies me as having experience, so let's not throw comments like that that are short of shut up, having said that here is the best guess from Reptile magazine:
Metabolic Bone Disease (Soft/Deformed Shells) in Tortoise Shells
Metabolic bone disease (MBD), also known as nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP), can be a common aliment of pet tortoises. This is due to a lack of calcium in the diet or a problem absorbing dietary calcium.

Tortoises need exposure to ultraviolet radiation A and B (UVA/B) in order to manufacture vitamin D3 from vitamin D2. Vitamin D3 is necessary for calcium in the diet to be absorbed through the gastrointestinal tract. In the wild, the sun provides ultraviolet light. Wild tortoises bask 8 to 14 hours/day and receive the necessary UVA/B rays in order to absorb calcium from food. Sunlight that shines through a glass or plastic window or cage is blocked from providing the necessary radiation.

Tortoises fed a diet low in calcium, or those who cannot absorb calcium well, usually first show a soft shell, especially if they are a juvenile. Baby tortoises naturally have a semi-soft shell after hatching, but it usually hardeners by 6 to 8 months of age. In calcium-deficient tortoises, the tortoise grows, but the shell does not. This causes the shell to become deformed and often the tortoise looks too big for its shell. It become weak, and eventually has trouble walking, due to soft bones. The soft bones can easily fracture, causing further problems. If untreated, the tortoise will eventual die. This is often a slow, painful death.

Metabolic bone disease can be prevented in several ways. First, a full-spectrum light source is needed in indoor enclosures. Those tortoises kept in outdoor pens get full sunlight as long as the pen/cage is placed where the sun shines. If they are housed indoors during the winter, provide the right lights. These can be incandescent or fluorescent, and they should be placed onto of the tank without any glass or plastic blocking it from the tortoise (screening is OK). The light should be as close as possible, between 12 and 18 inches away from the turtle. You want it close, but not close enough to where thermal burns can occur. Leave these full-spectrum bulbs on 12 to 14 hours/day, and change them every six to 10 months; their UVB output lessens over time.

The diet should be on rich in calcium. Beet tops and dark, leafy greens are an excellent source of calcium (iceberg or Romaine lettuce are not). A powdered vitamin/mineral supplement can be dusted over the food to ensure added calcium. These can be purchased at many pet-supply stores and online.

Treatment should first be a trip to your herp veterinarian. He/she can assess the degree and severity of the MBD, usually by using a radiograph to see if pathologic fractures have occurred. A blood panel is sometimes run, making sure other body systems have not been affected.

Husbandry and diet need to be corrected if inadequate. Sometimes oral liquid calcium is prescribed in addition to the above recommendations.

Tortoises severely malformed from MBD may never look normal. The misshapen shell may never appear like that of a healthy tortoise, especially if this has been a long-term condition.

BACK TO ME: i always say but no one listens: sulcatas are not for cold and dark states, i advise you send your baby of to a california or arizona and some like that state before it is too late. if it is MBD he will slowly and painfully die, or if you are willing to invest, it is in fact reversible, vitamin d, do what you can:)

Raising one sulcata, about the easiest species there is, does not make you or anyone else an expert. But that is irrelevant…

We all know what MBD is, and reptiles magazine is not the foremost authority on the subject, just so you know. Cloverhand's tortoise has been getting calcium supplementation twice a week and living under a mercury vapor bulb. MBD is certainly possible here, but not likely based on what we've been told.

My issue with your post and the reason for my comment was that you are advising this person to treat for shell rot, when there is no indication of a shell rot issue. All sorts of assumptions could be made about your level of knowledge and experience because of this, but I was trying to be tactful and nice about it, because I believe your intentions are good.

How many times have you experienced and dealt with kidney failure as a result of dehydration in sulcata hatchlings? Can you tell us what the symptoms would be for that? I can. Lack of growth, lack of appetite, lethargy, soft plastron. Sound familiar?

It helps no one, and confuses people who are looking for help when unqualified people give incorrect advice. I'm simply asking you to stay in your lane. I'm not telling you to shut up. Suggesting shell rot on a baby sulcata in an open topped enclosure is not good advice. You talk to any reptile vet and ask them how many shell rot cases they've seen on a sulcata. I've asked many of them. It just doesn't happen.

Finally, I would not keep sulcatas in the frozen North because it is not cheap, easy or convenient to do so. However, our shared personal feelings on the matter aside, there is no reason it can't be done and done well by people who are willing to put in the time, effort and money to do it right. This is no different than someone keeping box turtles and red foot tortoises in our dry CA climate. How would you react to someone telling you to send your animals to Florida or somewhere more humid and tropical since your climate is all wrong for them? Any species can be kept anywhere in the world with enough time, money and effort. We have successful Alaskan tortoise keepers right here on this forum. Cloverhand has done the right things for his/her tortoise, so the implication that this is happening due to climate or geographical region is baseless and could be taken as an insult. What difference does it make if this baby tortoise is housed indoors in SoCal, AZ, FL, or Harrisburg PA? It makes no difference. And before you say that it shouldn't be inside, let me say that would be wrong. I've done several side-by-side experiments with clutch mates, and babies do better when kept inside most of the time. Better by a large margin. So it doesn't matter where in the world a baby is started. What matters is how the baby is started.
 

the Turtle Shepherd

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i did not advise anything, how could I if i did not even see the tortoise. I was giving him my best guesses that match his description, never in there said I he should do what I said, you are reading a bit too much into it. and no, sulcatas are not prone to shell rot, but have they ever? yes, stop attacking. I also did not claim my source to be the perfect one, i just stated where it came from, it is called CITING. as for your general offensive attitude toward me, i just want to say that my posts are meant to inform what i found out, not to diagnose an invisible creature, what i suggested, and not advised, i hope you can read the difference, were the legitimate course of treatment.
i know you have to have the last word, so you can have it, I will not be commenting anymore, anywhere, you cut me real deep just now, i thought this was about tortoises, I was having a shi**y day and you just put a cherry on top of that pile, and this continuous in my face aggression is simply too much, goodbye.
I will let the forum members know in a journal, i am sure no one will miss me:) have a great day :) and do not waste this poster's time on attacks on my account, I will not read or respond to any kinds of messages, thank you for your understanding :)
 

JoesMum

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i did not advise anything, how could I if i did not even see the tortoise. I was giving him my best guesses that match his description, never in there said I he should do what I said, you are reading a bit too much into it. and no, sulcatas are not prone to shell rot, but have they ever? yes, stop attacking. I also did not claim my source to be the perfect one, i just stated where it came from, it is called CITING. as for your general offensive attitude toward me, i just want to say that my posts are meant to inform what i found out, not to diagnose an invisible creature, what i suggested, and not advised, i hope you can read the difference, were the legitimate course of treatment.
i know you have to have the last word, so you can have it, I will not be commenting anymore, anywhere, you cut me real deep just now, i thought this was about tortoises, I was having a shi**y day and you just put a cherry on top of that pile, and this continuous in my face aggression is simply too much, goodbye.
I will let the forum members know in a journal, i am sure no one will miss me:) have a great day :) and do not waste this poster's time on attacks on my account, I will not read or respond to any kinds of messages, thank you for your understanding :)

And with that, I suggest both of you leave this thread to its original topical. It is not fair to squabble in someone else's thread

Take it to PM if you must continue
 

Cloverhand

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i did not advise anything, how could I if i did not even see the tortoise. I was giving him my best guesses that match his description, never in there said I he should do what I said, you are reading a bit too much into it. and no, sulcatas are not prone to shell rot, but have they ever? yes, stop attacking. I also did not claim my source to be the perfect one, i just stated where it came from, it is called CITING. as for your general offensive attitude toward me, i just want to say that my posts are meant to inform what i found out, not to diagnose an invisible creature, what i suggested, and not advised, i hope you can read the difference, were the legitimate course of treatment.
i know you have to have the last word, so you can have it, I will not be commenting anymore, anywhere, you cut me real deep just now, i thought this was about tortoises, I was having a shi**y day and you just put a cherry on top of that pile, and this continuous in my face aggression is simply too much, goodbye.
I will let the forum members know in a journal, i am sure no one will miss me:) have a great day :) and do not waste this poster's time on attacks on my account, I will not read or respond to any kinds of messages, thank you for your understanding :)
I appreciate your input. But as I have looked into both of the issues you are presenting I am not treating him for shell rot right now since, as Tom stated, I have a very dry enclosure and his underside is perfect except for the softness. I do appreciate the time you took to give advice, but for now it is advice I will be tucking away and hopefully not needing.
 

Cloverhand

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Are there news ? How is the tort doing ? Please @Cloverhand give us an update.
He is still really lethargic and mostly not eating. He ate the tiniest bit yesterday but then slept the rest of the day. He woke up and had enough energy after I soaked him. So he is still doing pretty poorly. I am going to the expo here shortly to talk to the breeder as well to see what they say about his living conditions at the beginning of life.
 

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