Smooth to pyramiding.

[Anyfoot]

Something I’ve often thought about and never understood why.
You can get a pyramided tortoise and improve it’s husbandry so the new growth grows on in its correct plane (flatter).

But I have never ever seen a smooth tortoise once established(hardened off, ossification is complete) start to pyramid.

Does this mean the new bone growth is always trying to grow in the correct plane and once the tort has passed the hardening off period they pretty much grow on correctly?

But what controdicts that is I have a 14” redfoot that is perfectly pyramided, by that I mean her pyramiding follows the exact same growth plane throughout her life. So that means after she hardened off she carried on growing at the pyramided angle. So that means husbandry plays a role.


So back to the original thought, can a well established smooth tort start to pyramid with bad husbandry. If not then why?

@Markw84 @Tom Any input on this.

 

[Tom]

So back to the original thought, can a well established smooth tort start to pyramid with bad husbandry. If not then why?

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This sentence is your answer.

I don't know of any sort of "hardening off" time frame for giants like sulcatas or Galapagos tortoises. If they are still growing, this is still an issue.

If you move a 50 pound sulcata from South Florida humidity to the SoCal desert, the growth seems will get all crusty and messed up. You might not see pyramiding as much due to the size of the scutes, but you will see what I refer to as "rough growth" that looks pretty nasty. I try to add some humidity to my night boxes to counter this effect, but they grow better in more humid areas than they do here. Oddly, they don't seem to do this as much in AZ, and I cannot explain why as it is dry there too. I don't know if it is because our humidity fluctuates more, or because the day to night temperature differential is much great here, or if it is due to some other factor, but I've seen it a lot. It's to the point where I can look at a tortoise and tell you if it was grown in CA or not.

 

[Anyfoot]

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This sentence is your answer.

I don't know of any sort of "hardening off" time frame for giants like sulcatas or Galapagos tortoises. If they are still growing, this is still an issue.

If you move a 50 pound sulcata from South Florida humidity to the SoCal desert, the growth seems will get all crusty and messed up. You might not see pyramiding as much due to the size of the scutes, but you will see what I refer to as "rough growth" that looks pretty nasty. I try to add some humidity to my night boxes to counter this effect, but they grow better in more humid areas than they do here. Oddly, they don't seem to do this as much in AZ, and I cannot explain why as it is dry there too. I don't know if it is because our humidity fluctuates more, or because the day to night temperature differential is much great here, or if it is due to some other factor, but I've seen it a lot. It's to the point where I can look at a tortoise and tell you if it was grown in CA or not.

So what your saying is you can correct a pyramided tort (to some degree) to its natural bone growth path because it’s mature bones are always wanting that natural path with correct husbandry.

But a tort with mature bones that are already on it’s natural growth path(smooth) won’t veer off the natural growth path with the now bad husbandry, but we see nasty, messy growth?

 

[Tom]

So what your saying is you can correct a pyramided tort (to some degree) to its natural bone growth path because it’s mature bones are always wanting that natural path with correct husbandry.

But a tort with mature bones that are already on it’s natural growth path(smooth) won’t veer off the natural growth path with the now bad husbandry, but we see nasty, messy growth?

It's not "bad husbandry". Its dryness, as found outdoors in any dry climate any where in the world. My husbandry is excellent by any standard, but my climate is dry. When they get too large to be inside, I move them outside into large enclosures in my warm sunny climate, but it is drier outside than it is inside my humid closed chamber indoors. Its the same principal as starting seeding plants indoors and then moving them outside. It doesn't work well here in my area, but it works great in more humid parts of our country over here in the states. I've had nothing but problems doing this in Southern CA, but my friend in GA has great success with this method and produces an amazing and productive garden this way every year.

Yes, pyramiding in a young animal can be reduced and corrected by moving the animal into humid conditions and maintaining good hydration.

Also yes, a tortoise that was started with high humidity and then moved into drier conditions can still pyramid if it is still growing. In larger tortoises this later pyramiding is recognized in the growth seems more because the scutes themselves are already so large and flat from the previous growth in humid conditions, but it is still "pyramiding" as time progresses. There are many variables that determine the severity of it.

 

[Anyfoot]

It's not "bad husbandry". Its dryness, as found outdoors in any dry climate any where in the world. My husbandry is excellent by any standard, but my climate is dry. When they get too large to be inside, I move them outside into large enclosures in my warm sunny climate, but it is drier outside than it is inside my humid closed chamber indoors. Its the same principal as starting seeding plants indoors and then moving them outside. It doesn't work well here in my area, but it works great in more humid parts of our country over here in the states. I've had nothing but problems doing this in Southern CA, but my friend in GA has great success with this method and produces an amazing and productive garden this way every year.

Yes, pyramiding in a young animal can be reduced and corrected by moving the animal into humid conditions and maintaining good hydration.

Also yes, a tortoise that was started with high humidity and then moved into drier conditions can still pyramid if it is still growing. In larger tortoises this later pyramiding is recognized in the growth seems more because the scutes themselves are already so large and flat from the previous growth in humid conditions, but it is still "pyramiding" as time progresses. There are many variables that determine the severity of it.

That answered my question. And my bad clubbing humidity in with husbandry.

 

[Tom]

That answered my question. And my bad clubbing humidity in with husbandry.

I suppose that one could argue that housing a baby sulcata or star tortoise in dry conditions is "bad husbandry". With that in mind, I'd like to amend my previous sentence to "Its not necessarily bad husbandry..."

Good or bad husbandry can take so many forms, but the main issue in this conversation is humidity vs. dryness. Other husbandry variables are less pertinent to your question on this thread.

Now I'm just rambling, but I'm glad your question was answered. I hope @Markw84 also answers as his insight and articulation is always eloquent.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Also yes, a tortoise that was started with high humidity and then moved into drier conditions can still pyramid if it is still growing. In larger tortoises this later pyramiding is recognized in the growth seems more because the scutes themselves are already so large and flat from the previous growth in humid conditions, but it is still "pyramiding" as time progresses. There are many variables that determine the severity of it.

I wonder, when the tortoise is big enough that you don't need to worry about humidity as much anymore? This is of course species specific.

 

[Markw84]

Craig; My observations and opinion:

A very young tortoise has bones that are just ossifying, and in many places, fontanelles are still filling in. That new bone is extremely susceptible to the pressures of the keratin from growth in dry conditions or anything that "cures' the new keratin growth prematurely. As the tortoise grows and the bones more fully ossify, the plane of the bone growth starts to become a contributor to the degree of subsequent pyramiding. Bones do not grow from the seams, but instead from within the length of the bone. Bone seams do not align with scute seams and scute seams are the site of new pressure of keratin growth in the current conditions. Along the vertebrals this is very important as there are many more bone plates than scutes along the vertebral midline. So entire bones will be growing at a plane set by the early pyramiding, but are no longer in contact with a scute seam. Those bones will continue to expand along that early set plane with no scute seam to influence it. That is why pryamiding is most pronounced along the vertebral midline in pyramided tortoises.

Scutes on Left, Bones on Right.


If caught early, you can correct this and the new growth will be smooth and in a "proper" plane.



If a tortoise that is older with more fully ossified bones is then subjected to perfect condtions, the growth will still be skewed and influenced by the plane the bone growth has created. So new growth will still be at a inclined plane already created by previous conditions.



That is why also older tortoises that are started smooth are much more resistant to pyramiding in the traditional "pyramid shaped" look to the scutes. So, pyramiding can still affect tortoises that are older with more ossified bones. With a smooth started tortoise - If the tortoise is growing well, but conditions are not good, the pyramiding will appear very slight with a wide angle to the valley. The more resistant ossified bone deforms more slowly as the pressure from the new keratin does still exert pressure and compresses the underlying bone stimulating osteoclast development - which breaks down bone. The underside of that bone site then is under slight corresponding tension which stimulates osteoblast development and new bone is generated at the bottom of the bone at that site. So a "dip" is being formed. In a growing tortoise this valley is then spread out much more as the growth continues and the bone is much more resistant. This creates a very wide valley that is very slight to moderate pyramiding, depending upon growth rate.



However, if the tortoise is growing extremely slowly, this valley can be extreme.



If continued, you will see deep, steep valleys and the result will be the very deformed tortoises you see with a very stacked look to the scutes. In some cases you will see an older tortoise that started smoother, but then was subjected to extremely dry conditions with extremely slow growth and you will see the pyramiding that looks like plateaus separated by deep valleys.



In direct answer to your question - The pressures of pyramiding can always affect a tortoise. Age (fully ossified), growth rate, and degree of desiccating conditions all combine to create degree.

 

[Tom]

I wonder, when the tortoise is big enough that you don't need to worry about humidity as much anymore? This is of course species specific.

When they are no longer growing. It goes back to that all encompassing sentence: Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. No growth = no pyramiding.

Most tortoises reach near full size within a few years. Giants may take a bit longer, but any normal Russian or hermanni will be just about full size within 5-6 years, if not sooner if fed well and raised with humidity in a large closed chamber. I have observed nearly full sized Testudo in 2-3 years in many cases. Tortoises raised in harsher outdoor conditions and fed sparsely would take longer to reach full adult size.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Most tortoises reach near full size within a few years. Giants may take a bit longer, but any normal Russian or hermanni will be just about full size within 5-6 years, if not sooner if fed well and raised with humidity in a large closed chamber. I have observed nearly full sized Testudo in 2-3 years in many cases. Tortoises raised in harsher outdoor conditions and fed sparsely would take longer to reach full adult size.

Probably another obvious question, but a stunted tortoise that starts growing later could still pyramid?

 

[Anyfoot]

Craig; My observations and opinion:

A very young tortoise has bones that are just ossifying, and in many places, fontanelles are still filling in. That new bone is extremely susceptible to the pressures of the keratin from growth in dry conditions or anything that "cures' the new keratin growth prematurely. As the tortoise grows and the bones more fully ossify, the plane of the bone growth starts to become a contributor to the degree of subsequent pyramiding. Bones do not grow from the seams, but instead from within the length of the bone. Bone seams do not align with scute seams and scute seams are the site of new pressure of keratin growth in the current conditions. Along the vertebrals this is very important as there are many more bone plates than scutes along the vertebral midline. So entire bones will be growing at a plane set by the early pyramiding, but are no longer in contact with a scute seam. Those bones will continue to expand along that early set plane with no scute seam to influence it. That is why pryamiding is most pronounced along the vertebral midline in pyramided tortoises.

Scutes on Left, Bones on Right.

View attachment 387108
If caught early, you can correct this and the new growth will be smooth and in a "proper" plane.

View attachment 387116

If a tortoise that is older with more fully ossified bones is then subjected to perfect condtions, the growth will still be skewed and influenced by the plane the bone growth has created. So new growth will still be at a inclined plane already created by previous conditions.

View attachment 387117

That is why also older tortoises that are started smooth are much more resistant to pyramiding in the traditional "pyramid shaped" look to the scutes. So, pyramiding can still affect tortoises that are older with more ossified bones. With a smooth started tortoise - If the tortoise is growing well, but conditions are not good, the pyramiding will appear very slight with a wide angle to the valley. The more resistant ossified bone deforms more slowly as the pressure from the new keratin does still exert pressure and compresses the underlying bone stimulating osteoclast development - which breaks down bone. The underside of that bone site then is under slight corresponding tension which stimulates osteoblast development and new bone is generated at the bottom of the bone at that site. So a "dip" is being formed. In a growing tortoise this valley is then spread out much more as the growth continues and the bone is much more resistant. This creates a very wide valley that is very slight to moderate pyramiding, depending upon growth rate.

View attachment 387120

However, if the tortoise is growing extremely slowly, this valley can be extreme.

View attachment 387118

If continued, you will see deep, steep valleys and the result will be the very deformed tortoises you see with a very stacked look to the scutes. In some cases you will see an older tortoise that started smoother, but then was subjected to extremely dry conditions with extremely slow growth and you will see the pyramiding that looks like plateaus separated by deep valleys.

View attachment 387119

In direct answer to your question - The pressures of pyramiding can always affect a tortoise. Age (fully ossified), growth rate, and degree of desiccating conditions all combine to create degree.

That all makes sense now I can see what your saying is a smooth tort later having the valleys like in that Aldabra.
When your referring to the bones not at the scute seems your talking about bone plates aren’t you? Scute plates and bone plates overlap (like brick work) to create strength.

Where does the rib cage come into play. The ribs align with the areoles don’t they? If so does that mean scute seems and areoles across the carapace (side to side) all have a rib under them?

 

[Anyfoot]

@Markw84
Got me thinking now.
If the ribs are aligned with areola and the adjacent scute seem I was thinking the rib would not allow pyramiding once the rib bone is well established. But the thickness of the bone plate is allowing pyramiding and not effecting the ribs isn’t it ?

 

[Markw84]

The ribs, or any other bones, do not align with any scute areola. Refer to the diagram I had made above. The bones "pleurals" are the modified ribs. These ribs are modified to be flatter and fill in over the first few years of tortoise life to become the solid bones that make up the sides of the carapace. As you can see, they do not align with the costal scutes.

IF you look at the last picture of the sulcata in my post, you see rib bones (pleurals) definitely have pyramided. All bone is subject to the forces of prematurely dried/cured keratin.

 

[Anyfoot]

The ribs, or any other bones, do not align with any scute areola. Refer to the diagram I had made above. The bones "pleurals" are the modified ribs. These ribs are modified to be flatter and fill in over the first few years of tortoise life to become the solid bones that make up the sides of the carapace. As you can see, they do not align with the costal scutes.

IF you look at the last picture of the sulcata in my post, you see rib bones (pleurals) definitely have pyramided. All bone is subject to the forces of prematurely dried/cured keratin.

Thats answered a few questions I’ve been asking myself for a while now. I didn’t know the ribs flattened out to create the bone structure. I thought thought the fontanels filled in from the rib cage but ribs remained a different structure of bone. Cheers Mark.

 

[Anyfoot]

A good read here.

How the turtle got its shell through skeletal shifts and muscular origami

Turtle shells are unique adaptations, not least because the shoulder blade sits inside the ribcage unlike all other vertebrates. Now, a new study of developing turtle embryos suggests how these animals moved towards this bizarre body plan.

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[Anastasia 22]

Thank you for this thread! It gives me hope with my young Redfoot who is severely pyramided.

 

[Tom]

Probably another obvious question, but a stunted tortoise that starts growing later could still pyramid?

Oh yes. I've done that one my self many yeas ago.