External hydration

[Anyfoot]

I have a silly hypothetical question that has been nagging at me for quite some time now.

If we are so adamant that humidity plays a big role in smooth growth(at this point I do) Then in theory does that mean I could get a tortoise to only pyramid on selected scutes.
Let’s say if I put coconut oil on just the perimeter of one scute and allowed it to grow in dry conditions would all the other scutes pyramid and the coconutted scute b smooth. Obviously the adjacent scutes to the coconutted scute would show some sort of deformities.
If the answer is no, then that suggest either the hydration tracks the new keratin for full hydration of the entire newest growth.(doubt that) or its not external hydration that is the key.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

~ That is a great question.

 

[ascott]

I have a silly hypothetical question that has been nagging at me for quite some time now.

If we are so adamant that humidity plays a big role in smooth growth(at this point I do) Then in theory does that mean I could get a tortoise to only pyramid on selected scutes.
Let’s say if I put coconut oil on just the perimeter of one scute and allowed it to grow in dry conditions would all the other scutes pyramid and the coconutted scute b smooth. Obviously the adjacent scutes to the coconutted scute would show some sort of deformities.
If the answer is no, then that suggest either the hydration tracks the new keratin for full hydration of the entire newest growth.(doubt that) or its not external hydration that is the key.

Well, since I am a firm believer that hydration from within is about as important as environmental humidity, I would say, no.

 

[TechnoCheese]

I’ve thought about this too! I think it might be possible, because we usually already see the scutes in the middle/top of the plastron being more pyramided because of the closeness to heat lamps, along with no humidity.

 

[Markw84]

I have a silly hypothetical question that has been nagging at me for quite some time now.

If we are so adamant that humidity plays a big role in smooth growth(at this point I do) Then in theory does that mean I could get a tortoise to only pyramid on selected scutes.
Let’s say if I put coconut oil on just the perimeter of one scute and allowed it to grow in dry conditions would all the other scutes pyramid and the coconutted scute b smooth. Obviously the adjacent scutes to the coconutted scute would show some sort of deformities.
If the answer is no, then that suggest either the hydration tracks the new keratin for full hydration of the entire newest growth.(doubt that) or its not external hydration that is the key.

Craig

Based upon what I believe are the causes metabolically of pyramiding, I would believe you could indeed create a tortoise where some scutes pyramid and others do not.

It is the differential in keratin hydration between top of scute (exposed to environment) and bottom of scute (in contact with living tissue - epithelial layer) that creates the pyramiding. When the top of the newly formed keratin is much drier than the protected bottom of the keratin - you get pyramiding.

I can not think of any other example in nature of where newly forming keratin is not protected and exposed to the environment. Fingernails form under the protection of the cuticle. Feathers form with a protective sheath. Hair forms in the follicle protected beneath the skin. Horns first form within a protected covering of skin before emerging. Even aquatic turtles form new keratin under an older layer of keratin that will protect it as it forms, and later shed off exposing older, formed keratin. Our tortoises have a situation where in developing that outer shell and living on land, they have that unique situation where newly forming keratin is exposed to the environment. So it is environmental humidity/hydration that would then create pyramiding and internal hydration would not.

I know both @Tom and I have produced dozens if not 100's of well hydrated, pyramided sulcatas and leopards a few decades ago in efforts to figure this pyramiding thing out. With water always available and daily soaking - I still got pyramided sulcatas. It was only with the addition of a humid chamber to grow in, that I was able to grow smooth sulcatas.

I am seeing more and more cases that cause me to believe that coconut oil or something that will protect the new keratin from desiccating too quickly can also have a significant impact on smooth growth. It would be the seams of the scutes that would be the area of control - the newly forming keratin. I would say you could grow a tortoise the "old fashioned way" with a dry, open table. Then coat one side with coconut oil after baths, wiping off excess. I would bet you will end up with a tortoise pyramiding on one side and smooth on the other. whether coconut oil could totally reduce pyramiding on the one side - I don't know, but it seems it does certainly help - so it would be a way to see an obvious difference.

I just have a hard time growing a tortoise now in a dry environment just to test this. As I've said on many occasions - pyramiding is a good indicator of how dry a tortoise was raised. By itself it can be cosmetic. But because internal hydration is key to overall good health - the effects of an overly dry environment may certainly also be drying the nasal passage, lungs and indeed contribute to overall drain on internal hydration.

 

[Anyfoot]

If anyone out there as done this as an experiment please pm me. I have no ambitions to try this but would like to know the answer.
It most certainly would answer some questions.

 

[ascott]

Craig

Based upon what I believe are the causes metabolically of pyramiding, I would believe you could indeed create a tortoise where some scutes pyramid and others do not.

It is the differential in keratin hydration between top of scute (exposed to environment) and bottom of scute (in contact with living tissue - epithelial layer) that creates the pyramiding. When the top of the newly formed keratin is much drier than the protected bottom of the keratin - you get pyramiding.

I can not think of any other example in nature of where newly forming keratin is not protected and exposed to the environment. Fingernails form under the protection of the cuticle. Feathers form with a protective sheath. Hair forms in the follicle protected beneath the skin. Horns first form within a protected covering of skin before emerging. Even aquatic turtles form new keratin under an older layer of keratin that will protect it as it forms, and later shed off exposing older, formed keratin. Our tortoises have a situation where in developing that outer shell and living on land, they have that unique situation where newly forming keratin is exposed to the environment. So it is environmental humidity/hydration that would then create pyramiding and internal hydration would not.

I know both @Tom and I have produced dozens if not 100's of well hydrated, pyramided sulcatas and leopards a few decades ago in efforts to figure this pyramiding thing out. With water always available and daily soaking - I still got pyramided sulcatas. It was only with the addition of a humid chamber to grow in, that I was able to grow smooth sulcatas.

I am seeing more and more cases that cause me to believe that coconut oil or something that will protect the new keratin from desiccating too quickly can also have a significant impact on smooth growth. It would be the seams of the scutes that would be the area of control - the newly forming keratin. I would say you could grow a tortoise the "old fashioned way" with a dry, open table. Then coat one side with coconut oil after baths, wiping off excess. I would bet you will end up with a tortoise pyramiding on one side and smooth on the other. whether coconut oil could totally reduce pyramiding on the one side - I don't know, but it seems it does certainly help - so it would be a way to see an obvious difference.

I just have a hard time growing a tortoise now in a dry environment just to test this. As I've said on many occasions - pyramiding is a good indicator of how dry a tortoise was raised. By itself it can be cosmetic. But because internal hydration is key to overall good health - the effects of an overly dry environment may certainly also be drying the nasal passage, lungs and indeed contribute to overall drain on internal hydration.

"So it is environmental humidity/hydration that would then create pyramiding and internal hydration would not."

Then there are those of us that do not support this theory in its entirety. To subscribe to this theory, one would then question the need for a source of drinking water at all, ever. Just can not be entirely environmental...nope.

Now, do not mistake what I am saying here, I do believe environmental humidity, in some species, is more beneficial....I do believe in others it is artificially imposed because the human is lazy and wants to say they figured it out...

I mean, if comparing a fingernail, for simple comparison that is, to the shell on the tortoise....when we get out of the water, our nails are pliable...once we begin to air out...they become dryer...but if we have taken care to drink plenty of water, to eat well and overall try to balance out life. they just naturally dry with the air, no harm.....but if we are dehydrated, if we have starved our body of water consumption and other balanced foods, our nails are likely to not only dry with the air but will be brittle and not grow well....ridges, and such. So we can falsely keep the tortoise shell wet all of the time and in that condition we can lay claim to fixing the shell irregularity issue...which to me is not really fixing anything if that is the only issue being taken...just my opinion, as others have theirs.

 

[SteveW]

"So it is environmental humidity/hydration that would then create pyramiding and internal hydration would not."

Then there are those of us that do not support this theory in its entirety. To subscribe to this theory, one would then question the need for a source of drinking water at all, ever. Just can not be entirely environmental...nope.

Now, do not mistake what I am saying here, I do believe environmental humidity, in some species, is more beneficial....I do believe in others it is artificially imposed because the human is lazy and wants to say they figured it out...

I mean, if comparing a fingernail, for simple comparison that is, to the shell on the tortoise....when we get out of the water, our nails are pliable...once we begin to air out...they become dryer...but if we have taken care to drink plenty of water, to eat well and overall try to balance out life. they just naturally dry with the air, no harm.....but if we are dehydrated, if we have starved our body of water consumption and other balanced foods, our nails are likely to not only dry with the air but will be brittle and not grow well....ridges, and such. So we can falsely keep the tortoise shell wet all of the time and in that condition we can lay claim to fixing the shell irregularity issue...which to me is not really fixing anything if that is the only issue being taken...just my opinion, as others have theirs.

Wow, what a fun post! It’s probably helpful to remember that a theory is testable, predictive, and explanatory. That’s a concise way of saying that it’s not susceptible to a breakdown in a fingernail analogy, your opinion, or excessive uses of ellipses...

To my understanding, the terms ‘hypothesis’ or possibly ‘model’ are more in keeping with the current state of the art; regardless none are indicative of laziness, unlike, say, vague conjecture.

Since you’ve clearly researched this topic extensively, I would be very interested in your results. Which species have you raised from hatchlings and what are your results? Pictures and growth charts would go a long way to put those lazy theorists in their place.

 

[ascott]

Wow, what a fun post! It’s probably helpful to remember that a theory is testable, predictive, and explanatory. That’s a concise way of saying that it’s not susceptible to a breakdown in a fingernail analogy, your opinion, or excessive uses of ellipses...

To my understanding, the terms ‘hypothesis’ or possibly ‘model’ are more in keeping with the current state of the art; regardless none are indicative of laziness, unlike, say, vague conjecture.

Since you’ve clearly researched this topic extensively, I would be very interested in your results. Which species have you raised from hatchlings and what are your results? Pictures and growth charts would go a long way to put those lazy theorists in their place.

See, this is what happens and knocks down the ability to converse to gain knowledge....I used simple word, lazy, and it is used to try to degrade someones opinion....I used the word exactly for what it describes in the word itself....and it has been taken as a personal attack...I don't do that.

I have never said I have researched this topic extensively, you did.... your immediate statement of asking me what hatchlings I have raised is simply a shield a lot of folks throw up to try to discredit what a person knows by observation and research .....so for this, I will overlook for the sake of sharing. I do know a bit about a couple species of tortoise that occupy completely different ends of the "hydration" spectrum.

Well, here I have to be very honest, as I am always...very honest. I have CDTs here, each given to me as adults or near adults who have been ripped from the wild by some Aholes who think it is alright (not me).

I also have Redfoot Tortoise, two given to me by a tortoise forum member, years ago, who took them because she felt bad for them to remain in the situation they were in, but not a species of choice to that member..they were already significantly pyramided and one could barely see....and another member was a friend and had a number of babies and was happy to re home two with me, which I am super thrilled about as they each have a super fun personality....one was small and a little lumpy (not considered pyramided, but not natural smooth)...

I also have two Red Ear Sliders that were initially 2 for 5.00 bucks in a Los Angeles alley way purchased for a little girl during a clothes shopping trip (again, not me)...so..with that being said...let me also disclose that I am from a family that had older family members that would hike, stumble across and take from the wild a variety of reptiles (rattle snakes, gopher snakes and anything else come across on the hike, as well as spiders, from Griffith Park , Los Angeles to watch, to feed and then release back (in a time and several years back before taking was a "crime")...so my personal belief is that reptiles belong in the wild and that the wild is where they perform best (without humans mucking it up). I am not a believer that wild animals (reptiles included should be confined to humans yards)....nor should they be forced to survive in human habitats...however, sometimes there are species that are disturbed and now must remain in human care.

I have CDTs here that were ripped form the wild..which, in my opinion should never have happened...but did and it is what it is....one of the CDTs here was turned over to me by Ca Fish and Wildlife Dept because he was one of many that a person continually stole from the desert outside of Barstow...and the female to this male was sadly ran over by a pizza man...disgusting. But I digress....I am not in anyway a person that houses tortoise to breed tortoise....I am however a person that has always believed, and still do, that tortoise belong in the wild.

Now, before folks jump on me, understand that I, as a logical person understand and appreciate why folks house, breed, sell tortoise...and I pass no judgement....seriously I don't, it is just not my practice. I do have opinions based on natural habitat....and am limited to a handful of species that I have encountered in my life personally...I have hiked, sweated, huddled under desert scrub to shelter from the sun and dry desert wind....just to get a glimpse of tortoise and their behavior....which no one will ever counter to what my eyes sees.

I know that folks here take what they do as a "science" and I appreciate it. I do however, disagree with some, because I see people fill in space with what they think is best because they don't know any different....okay, do we agree I have never claimed to be a biologist, nor claimed to be a back yard breeder, nor claimed that what I see and believe is the almighty word...clear?

Here is what I do know. There is no way a simple human knows nor can know all aspects of what makes a perfect "wild" shell. The moment I hear a person proclaim to know what will "cure" all species of pyramiding I am put on guard....because we are simple humans with our ego and all. I know that a species, such as a CDT, has little to no access to water...yet a wild CDT has the most perfect, glass smooth shell and has done so with NO assistance from us simple humans....sure, some say that it must be because a CDT lives in a hole in the desert for 90+% of their life, I know this to be false...personal experience and lots of sweating balls in the middle of the mojave to know better as well as an improvised viewing of what they do when given options..such as, if a CDT is given several choices between food or water, they will always choose to drink water...not soak in it...but to drop their head in it for 15 to 20 minutes straight and drink all that they can consume..while peeing out their bladder....they can totally choose to soak but would rather drink and then get to going....water intake and then food and then shade...in that order...again, a desert species doing what they find important....which can not ever be replicated in desperation in a controlled yard setting....

Even the Redfoot here will seek out water to consume vs soak in or eat....every time. Now, once the need for water intake is met (on both CDTs and Redfoot) then they begin to lounge about and enjoy the water for soaking ....food is consumed as though someone is going to steal it...again, after the water consumption....

I have never attempted to say that I breed tortoise for sport nor sale....both are fine, but not what I do....but I have spent numerous years and hot days observing what goes on without human intervention...and that is what I base by opinions, shared here on.

No one here has yet given a convincing speech that high humidity will ever replace water consumption for a well hydrated and happy tortoise.....I do however see that a forced environment of heavy hydration can give the impression that it is the cure all for a smooth shell....however, I always say...sure external humidity is nice..but when you take that away what happens to the shell as it hits the drying air? I know from observation ...if a tortoise has had an opportunity to consume water, expel old water and waste...they are good....

I have nothing to prove on an ego platform....I know what I see. I know what I see. So, understand that is where I come from

 

[Anyfoot]

@ascott

Have you observed baby CDT’s in the wild?
If yes please tell us as much as you can on what you observed.

 

[ascott]

@ascott

Have you observed baby CDT’s in the wild?
If yes please tell us as much as you can on what you observed.

Not enough to offer any helpful insight....they are kinda like baby pigeons....I just don't really see them ....but, that is alright...if they are doing what they are suppose to, I would not readily see them.

 

[Anyfoot]

Not enough to offer any helpful insight....they are kinda like baby pigeons....I just don't really see them ....but, that is alright...if they are doing what they are suppose to, I would not readily see them.

I’m not sure if anyone agrees with me on this.
I was under the impression that the humidity thing(external hydration) is only critical at a very young age. So when a tort hatches it’s first and most important thing to do is to find cover and hide from predators. This we are assuming is in the dense humid undergrowth.(micro climates). The tort keeps hidden only venturing out for food and maybe some sun(maybe), probably dusk and dawn.
During this hiding stage the process of bones hardening off takes place(whilst humid). Once the tort is big enough and the bone structure is hardened then the need for high humidity is no longer needed for smooth Growth. At this stage they become more adventurous and fearless of predators.
I know at 2yrs old my redfoots carry on growing at the same smoothness without soaking them and needing a very high level of humidity.
So for redfoots somewhere between 0 and 2yrs old is the break off point if high humidity is the answer. Size of the tort seems irrelevant too.
I’ve also noticed no matter what, if my torts are going to start getting bumpy it’s after 5 months old. They are all smooth to this age.
This is the only part that is still nagging at me that suggest vitamins are playing a higher role than first thought. Could it be simply that I’m not feeding enough vitamins and the initial stock pile from hatching runs out around the 5 months old mark. We shall see because they are getting more than enough now.
If humidity is key, then 80/85% just is not high enough from what I’m seeing.

The first 3 I raised that are now 4yrs old and are smooth where raised in a vivarium for first 2 yrs at 90/99% humidity, tbh it was more like 99% most of the time. I also at some point fed these anything and everything. It was a fluke they are smooth because I was learning, but looking back I think very very high humidity Is one of the vital ingredients to growing a smooth tort.

I still can only see one variation for me to why I can grow some torts perfectly smooth and some bumpy in the same group. It has to be their individual actions that are playing a role. The smoother guys could be finding the very very high humid climates within my already high humid enclosure.

Next experiment is 2 groups in identical enclosure at 99% humidity. Both fed same diet, no hides and no substrate to dig into. Group one with daily soaks.
Group two with vitamin powder on food.
This will answer questions as long as both groups don’t get smooth and bumpy torts.