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Does diet contribute to pyramiding.

Discussion in 'Advanced Tortoise Topics' started by Anyfoot, Apr 6, 2017.

  1. Anyfoot

    Anyfoot Well-Known Member

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    Thanks @Markw84. Very educational as usual.

    There are still a few minor things I'm not understanding about how the new keratin grows.
    I'll get a couple of photos later tonight, but sometimes I see a nice steady growth of keratin, this displays as a thin white line around the scute boarders, then sometimes I see a very obvious wide crevice. We obviously get growth rings around the scutes. So when I see a white keratin line between scutes, it's actually 2 lines, one for each adjacent scute. Is that correct.
    When I see a wide crevice between scutes what am I actually looking at, is it a sign that the tort is too dry at that particular moment and the new keratin hasn't expanded to fill the crevice. Where does that new keratin grow from. The bottom of the crevice, or from under the last hard keratin growth.
  2. Anyfoot

    Anyfoot Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I'm just going to stick a load of photos on with their ages. All those at 16 months old were exposed to artificial basking through a window for long periods. I thought this was why they looked so bad.
    See what you think. You'll notice some look dry, it's only the last couple of weeks I've allowed them to get dryer because temps dropped to 25c during winter nights. So basically we spray in the morning and soak them at least 3 times a week, I usually spray in the evening too. I've soaked them all every day except the 6 month olds. They were soaked daily for 3 months then I changed to every 3 days. Personally I think as long as they get some hydration they all look the same up to around 6 months old(smooth). Then the crevices kick in and things change.

    #6 has white growth line, #7 has a crevice. Why?

    #1. 8 months
    IMG_2019.JPG

    #2. 11 months
    IMG_2022.JPG

    #3. 11 months.
    IMG_2023.JPG

    #4. 7 months.
    IMG_2024.JPG

    #5. 6 months.
    IMG_2026.JPG

    #6. 6 months.
    IMG_2027.JPG

    #7. 8 months.
    IMG_2028.JPG

    #8. 11 months.
    IMG_2029.JPG

    #9. 8 months.
    IMG_2030.JPG

    #10. 11 months.
    IMG_2031.JPG

    #11. 16 months.
    IMG_2032.JPG

    #12. 16 months.
    IMG_2034.JPG

    #13. 9 months.
    IMG_2036.JPG

    #14. 8 months.
    IMG_2038.JPG

    #15. 16 months.
    IMG_2039.JPG

    #16. 6 months.
    IMG_2042.JPG

    #17. 6 months.
    IMG_2044.JPG

    #18. 16 months. (Worst one of the lot:()
    IMG_2046.JPG
  3. ColaCarbonaria

    ColaCarbonaria Active Member

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    This is great stuff from everyone. @Anyfoot thank you for keeping the pedal to the metal in your quest to better understand your charges and never being satisfied in that quest. Your babies are beautiful.
    Anyfoot likes this.
  4. Anyfoot

    Anyfoot Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Cola. If we talk we learn.
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  5. Anyfoot

    Anyfoot Well-Known Member

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    I've put this one up before I think.
    This is the same tortoise at around 5/6 months then at about 14 months. (Now16 months old).
    If you look at the younger photo you can just see the first crevice. Then look at the older one, it went down hill from that crevice.
    So these 16 month olds that look horrible didn't get any protein for 6 months, lately through buying a solar meter I've discovered my torts were probably only getting half the recommended uvb rays. On top of that I created a drying spot via the window. Looking at it like that I'm thinking, mmmm low vitamin D source. If so, it also means they have roughly 6 months supple of vitamins from hatching.

    But #2 and 3 above contradicts that thought.

    IMG_1044.JPG IMG_1045.jpg
    omar_00043 likes this.
  6. Anyfoot

    Anyfoot Well-Known Member

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    If I had two torts and cared for them identically but supplimented only one with vitamins would that ones fontanelles fill quicker and would it's bones ossify faster?
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  7. zovick

    zovick Well-Known Member

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    That is very likely the case, assuming that the proper level of UV light was provided to them both so that the supplements that one received could be metabolized properly.
    Anyfoot likes this.
  8. Anyfoot

    Anyfoot Well-Known Member

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    @Markw84

    This is one of the ones I raised in the enclosure that I allowed sunlight to shine through the window and create a dry hot basking spot. This is actually the bumpiest one. It was soaked daily for first 6 months. I fed this one and it’s clutch mates 50% weeds and flowers, 20% fruit, 20% mushrooms and 10% protein. (Protein was cat food 3 times per month), I’ve never added supplements in any way other than cuttlebone. Many thoughts have gone through my mind as to why it is bumpy. I’ve since with later clutches tried various diets and soaking routines. I’ve even thought maybe I’ve been keeping them too wet. I’ve always come back to blaming it on the window creating a dry hot spot. Humidity has always been 80% plus.
    The last 3 months I’ve drastically changed my care. Diet has been mainly grocery greens. I feed catfood once a month, and on rare occasion add a few mushrooms or a bit of fruit to the greens. I’ve been putting mixing 5ml of nutrobal into the greens every day(43 babies).
    Soaking them twice a week.
    So basically I’ve slowed down the growth by only offering greens and upped the vitamin intake by adding nutrobal. Since doing this I’ve seen no crevices and only the white growth rings that I’m actually thinking is a good thing.
    What do you think of the newest growth ring.

    Just something I thought of lately regarding the thoughts on does diet effect pyramiding( basically fast growth). You and Tom have herbivore species, I have omnivores, I’m thinking it’s far easier for me to over feed my omnivores and force them to grow faster(beyond species normality) through a diet of mushrooms, meat, fruit and foliage than it is you guys feeding foliage. The majority of the time when we here of knowledgeable breeders saying over feeding contributes to pyramiding it is from redfoot breeders. Maybe because of the said diet vast variety for redfoots it is possible to grow them too fast. Maybe they shouldn’t eat rich meats and fruits at an early stage of life. Foliage along with the odd bug and bits of dirt sounds more like it to me.
    B1DF3508-12E9-4ADE-8F5D-B77B18D08E79.jpeg C439CCF9-DD52-4555-8AFB-69D193ECE8DF.jpeg 7516E87D-9ECB-4214-BFB7-C2D86F0C8560.jpeg
    Jay Bagley likes this.
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