Soaking and water dish question

[nomylarballoons]

My tortoise hates being soaked. Every time I put her in her container she immediately starts trying to get out. I soak her once a week and try to keep her in for about 5-10 minutes, but she doesn't drink or poo or pee (as far as I can tell) - all she does is try to get out. How important is soaking? I don't want her to get dehydrated or impacted or anything but I don't want to needlessly stress her out. I was thinking about maybe trying to soak her in a bathtub instead of her smaller container (I use a cat litter pan) but I'm worried about whatever soap or other chemical residue might be in the tub. She's a 3-4-year-old Hermann's tortoise.

I've also never seen her drink from her water bowl. I'm not watching her 24/7 so I can't say for sure but she really doesn't seem to like water. All the bowl does is make a mess. I've tried many different bowls - big and small, shallow and deep, with and without ramps, embedded in her substrate (aspen shavings) and just lying on top, and all I've ever seen her do is climb around on them and make a mess. One vet I talked to said to just take it out if she's not drinking from it because it's a salmonella risk, and that I should just feed her a little more romaine lettuce to keep her hydrated. This seems kind of odd to me, would it be okay to do?

thanks guys!

 

[Kristina]

Please DO NOT remove her water dish! ALL life NEEDS water... To deprive them of that is base cruelty! I am very, very surprised that a veterinarian would advise you to do that!

As you have already stated, you do not watch her 24/7. She very well could be drinking when you are not around or not looking. I have never heard of a water bowl being a salmonella risk (any one else?) but as long as you are cleaning it once a day, I can't imagine that it would be a breeding ground for harmful bacteria, especially if she is not defecating in it.

Does your tort have a humid hide? If so, it may not be necessary to "force-soak" her. However, tortoises skin is more permeable than you might think.

Climbing around on the bowl and making a mess is just going to be one of the side products of having a tort.

Kristina

 

[Maggie Cummings]

That particular species is noted for being very afraid of water. But your tortoise needs to be soaked and I think that once a week is not enough. 3 times a week would be better. Is your water warm enough? Is the water level right at the bridge? The water level should be right where the carapace meets the plastron. If you soak regularly your tortoise will be less afraid and less afraid... I also think that Vet gave you some bad advice. Keep the water dish in the habitat...

 

[Yvonne G]

The reason some folks think its not a good idea to have a waterer in the habitat is because it might grow mold under it. If you have a substrate that doesn't mold easily, then you don't have to worry. I have found that putting them into a container that they can't see out of makes them feel a little safer. I use a dish pan. The sides are too high for them to see over. Then I place the cutting board over the top of the dish pan. I leave them in the water at least 15 minutes and I soak babies every other day.

Yvonne

 

[nomylarballoons]

Thanks so much for the advice. I'll definitely be keeping her water bowl in her enclosure, then. I'm in the process of making her a humid hide (along with a brand new tortoise table). The water I use to soak her in is lukewarm and I test the temperature on my forearm. Should I try making it warmer? I don't want to risk her overheating.

 

[Yvonne G]

No, that's good. Luke warm or room temp is fine.

Yvonne

 

[Millerlite]

I use to never have a water dish in my hermanns baby enclosure. I soaked them every other day though. When they went outside is when they got a water dish. BUt now i have a water dish in all my enclosures.

 

[nomylarballoons]

Forgot to mention, the same vet who recommended I remove the water dish from the enclosure also suggested I try adding a little bit of Gatorade or Pedialyte to the soaking water (or I guess also to just the water in her dish) to get her to drink more. Is this good advice? I'm worried about the sugar content. Her stools are usually on the soft side if anything so I guess she's well-hydrated but maybe a little bit of Gatorade would help her to be less stressed out by soaking?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

The thinking is that Gatorade would add electrolytes to her system. I don't believe that. I add a drop or 2 of bird vitamins to the soaking water (per Danny) and I sprinkle TNT and chopped up hay over the food couple of times a week. But even tho my Russian hates it I soak her 2 or 3 times a week. If she was smaller I'd soak her everyday, but as an adult I don't think she needs to be soaked that often...

 

[Yvonne G]

Forgot to mention, the same vet who recommended I remove the water dish from the enclosure also suggested I try adding a little bit of Gatorade or Pedialyte to the soaking water (or I guess also to just the water in her dish) to get her to drink more.

I don't know about Gatorade, but pedialyte doesn't have any sugar in it. Its for the electrolytes, like Maggie said.

Yvonne

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Hey EVERYBODY!

What is the purpose of 'force' [ which IS what you are doing ] soaking???
Shouldn't we just provide them what they need.. a dish they can drink from when they like - or sit in if they like? Or feed them the "natural" nutrients they need so we don't have to supplement them.. which can be done very easily.

Do we know what they want and need better than they do? Do you realize ( in most cases.. this one especially ) that you are scaring the poop out of them? Granted there are 'health' reasons for "re-hydrating" torts.. but soaking just so we can say that we do on a regular basis is very stressful to any tortoise. Handling them on a regular basis is also.

Remember I'm here for the sake of tortoises.. not to be popular; with old meaningless tradition! And before anybody gets indignant.. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. Let's do what's best for the tortoises.. huh?

Terry K

 

[Yvonne G]

Terry: Its not so important to soak the baby redfoot tortoises because they live in a damp environment all the time with little or no lighting, but the desert-type babies like sulcatas, Russians, gopherus and I think, Greeks, are kept under hot lights and heaters and are essentially on "slow cook." Even if you have a waterer in the habitat, the babies aren't always smart enough to re-hydrate themselves. I have proven to myself time and again that babies need to be soaked. When I pick them up to place them in the water they feel light and when I take them out of the water several minutes later, they feel heavier. Forced soaking isn't as important after the babies get to be a couple years old, but when they are that tiny, in the first couple years, they DO need to be soaked every other day or so.

Yvonne

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Yvonne I am not talking about redfoot tortoises. And we're talking about a 3-4 year old Hermann's on this thread. But it applies to any tortoise!

Why are they ALL smart enough in the wild.. but not in captivity? Are you ( EVERYBODY.. regardless of species ) providing a dish they can walk in and out of.. at will? If not.. you aren't providing their needs.

If you are 'cooking' them then you have to have more than ONE dish.. wouldn't you think? Plus you can train them by placing them in the dish [ that they can escape from ] and ( again ) let them do their thing.

Like another member here [ I was talking with today ] said. "They've been surviving for a million years.. and then we come along and have to help them. I provide all of mine with their needs.. leave them alone.. and they make babies!".

This isn't rocket surgery or brain science...

NERD

 

[Yvonne G]

Why are they ALL smart enough in the wild.. but not in captivity?
NERD

Because there's no one who puts them under hot lights or heaters in the wild.

Yvonne

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I agree with Yvonne...we have them under hot lights on slow cook. If we follow the care sheets exactly the temp under the basking light is 90 or 95 degrees. That's really hot for a small tortoise. If we are talking about a 3 or 4 year old Gopherus agassizii he's only 4 inches, that's really small. A Sulcata the same age is 10 pounds or so and the soaking is not as important at that weight. But for the smaller species it is absolutely necessary to soak them to prevent dehydration. When they are that small by the time a keeper notices they are dehydrated it could be too late. I think it's better in this case to be safe and soak the smaller tortoises. It may not be important to soak a forest species who is on damp substrate and not under hot lights. but for the desert species under hot lights soaking is absolutely necessary. You want to call it forced soaking, that's fine by me...i will still soak everyday...

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Well then why do you put them under hot lights or heaters in captivity? If they don't need 90-95 degree basking spots in the wild.. why would you subject them to those temps in captivity? Especially if it causes "DE-HYDRATION"?!?

Did it ever occur to you that the 'desert-species' caresheets might be wrong??? [ or incomplete ] You're telling me they ( the torts ) aren't smart enough to move out from under the "cooker"? Are you providing water dishes that are submerged into the substrate that they literally step-down into? And placed in the path so they will quickly learn where the water/soaking dishes are! If the caresheets you are following doesn't include this info.. I would seriously consider different caresheets.

Yes they do "mess-up" the water with submerged dishes - better to deal with that then the stress to your tort associated with "handling"!

Creating any situation that requires another situation to off-set the adverse affect of the first.. can not be condidered good husbandry practices or using common sense. ( obviously if they are dehydrated and placed in water they will retain the water and gain weight )

Again this is not a personal attack on anyone or anything other than 'caresheets' that create stress for the torts and undo work and costs for the keeper. And this has been going on for "a-long-time". Old ( wrong ) tradition dies slow.

Keep smiling gang...

Terry K

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Well then why do you put them under hot lights or heaters in captivity? If they don't need 90-95 degree basking spots in the wild.. why would you subject them to those temps in captivity? Especially if it causes "DE-HYDRATION"?!?

Did it ever occur to you that the 'desert-species' caresheets might be wrong??? [ or incomplete ] You're telling me they ( the torts ) aren't smart enough to move out from under the "cooker"? Are you providing water dishes that are submerged into the substrate that they literally step-down into? And placed in the path so they will quickly learn where the water/soaking dishes are! If the caresheets you are following doesn't include this info.. I would seriously consider different caresheets.

Yes they do "mess-up" the water with submerged dishes - better to deal with that then the stress to your tort associated with "handling"!

Creating any situation that requires another situation to off-set the adverse affect of the first.. can not be condidered good husbandry practices or using common sense. ( obviously if they are dehydrated and placed in water they will retain the water and gain weight )

Again this is not a personal attack on anyone or anything other than 'caresheets' that create stress for the torts and undo work and costs for the keeper. And this has been going on for "a-long-time". Old ( wrong ) tradition dies slow.

Keep smiling gang...

Terry K

I get a kick out of how you make a direct attack on somebody (your comment about bad husbandry practices) and yet you say it's not a direct attack on anybody. Yes it is. You do that in almost every post you make. Then you will say something to the effect of..."before you get indignant here remember we are here for the tortoises"...

 

[redkim]

I dunno Maggie, I am kinda taking Terry's posts as a way to re-think and re-check how we do things. It's a good thing to occasionally step back and look at how we're doing things and why. The if you are happy with your program keep doing it - to heck with what anyone else says.

Terry - my take on it is that we as people create an unnatural environment the very minute we have a captive tortoise. Therefore we have to adapt the ways we do things in order to counter the effects of our "meddling" if you will. I don't care if someone lives in AZ where they can definitely mimic desert conditions better than someone in Washington or Maine, the act of captivity is not natural no matter what we do. However the positive aspects of captivity sure do outweigh the negatives and we work to minimize those negatives that we inflict. The baby tortoise grows without danger of predators and with a ready food and water source at all times. They don't have to find food and hide from danger, deal with adverse weather, bad food years or anything else.

So for us to to keep them in a steady and safe environment we have to also take on the added work of countering the effects of our captivity by soaking and supplements, heat, lighting, etc. We are trying to give them a close version of the natural environment as best we can. In the wild they learn to do for themselves fast or die. In captivity the consequences are not as dire, there is someone to take care of them and I guess that may even "dumb" them down some since they all get to survive not just the savvy ones. Survival of the fittest does not happen.

I see the "dumbing" down effect in a lot of cattle so this seems very similar to me.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Thank you redkim.. you're real real close to the point.

Being tempted or being deceived goes with life in the 21st century. So we are better off if we constantly "tweek" things to assure we are "in-line"! There is nothing wrong with being deceived unless we don't "count-the-cost" of buying into it.. and going along with the deception. We choose to respond to or react to every event in life. Reacting is almost always emotion/ego driven. We've all experienced the result of those motivators! So when I imply that someone is practicing wrong husbandry.. it's the husbandry that's wrong.. not the keeper that didn't know any better.

I followed the old outdated caresheets for raising tortoises back in the '90's and ended up with "un-natural" results with many of them.. because the "care" was all the same for all tortoises.

I acquired my first "painted" turtle in 1952.. kept and bred ( a few of the ) turtles and tortoises from every "hemisphere" - yadda, yadda. I've probably killed more "critters" in the past 50+ years than I care to admit.. and all the while I've watched how they all responded to or reacted to different or like care.

If I were to make a few extreme "blanket" statements:

Cold-blooded reptiles do better "too cold" than "too hot".
Cold-blooded reptiles do better "too hungry" than "too over-fed".
The less we handle them the better.

Obviously ALL tortoises have similar.. and/or unique needs.. and we need to stay within those parameters.

Every breeder [ anyone who has females that produce consistently year after year ] that I know of.. rely on diet and set-up as their criteria for keeping their tortoises 'happy and healthy' enough to propagate - not a form of external stimuli ( supplements, etc. ). In fact a well known sulcata breeder told me on the phone that "'Over-supplementing' is one of the worst things we can do to hatchling tortoises."

So I can only encourage you to do your own research by FIRST finding out where and how your individual species lives.. and then duplicate that as best that you can - within moderation.

Less is best.

NERD

BTW.. maybe I can elaborate on your 'take' more later redkim...

 

[Maggie Cummings]

On of the things I like best about this forum is the exchange of positive information. I am always open to new and different ways of raising our tortoises, but to have someone criticize me or anyone else about the way we keep our animals just rubs me the wrong way...I don't particularly care if someone disagrees with my husbandry, but to insult me about that care is just wrong.
I think it's best if I back out of this thread...