South Florida - New Enclosure - Red Foot or Sulcata?

[wellington]

Whilst I know dry conditions is usually the main factor contributing towards pyramiding, I’m pretty sure lack of the right lighting and nutrients can contribute to it as well?
I’ve seen lots of folks say when there’s extremely severe pyramiding there’s likely MBD going on? If the pyramiding has caused them to be practically deformed, leading to issues with walking etc, that would then lead to it being more difficult for them to digest said nutrients.. making them more vulnerable to MBD, no?

Lack of Humidity causes pyramiding. Lack of proper lighting and diet can lead to MBD.
My leopard is severely pyramided, with no MBD.
The one I rescued, couldn't walk. Due to lack of room. No MBD, but is pyramided.
One doesn't really cause the other. Totally improper care, lack of Humidity and poor diet, lack of calcium and UV can then cause both because there is poor husbandry on every level.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

My leopard has severe pyramiding but no MBD. Wrong enclosure type back in the day but everything else was good. I wouldn't really relate the two. Severe pyramiding can happen without the rest of the husbandry being wrong, mine are proof!.

I agree. I said "often", not always. My RF is another proof (pronounced bumps from the old days and, hopefully, no MBD). Yet, I'm not sure if we can see MBD without pyramiding.

 

[wellington]

I agree. I said "often", not always. My RF is another proof (pronounced bumps from the old days and, hopefully, no MBD). Yet, I'm not sure if we can see MBD without pyramiding.

You can see MBD with pyramiding that is not severe. We have seen a couple on this forum, Sulcatas I believe, if I remember right. But not sure we have seen any that are smooth with MBD. Likely won't. If they are doing things right to not let them pyramid, they likely are also doing the proper diet and lighting.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

These are not ones that I own and it is 4 individual photos taken at the same time. Hopefully we can provide a good new home for them but before I go down that road I wanted to make sure I'm also capable with the space and location I have. We are very willing to learn and put in the effort to do this correctly.

The sulcata is also not kept in good conditions, I think it spends a lot of time in a 10 gallon glass enclosure! I'm sure even my best attempt will be better than what they're getting now.

Going back to the space requirements:
1. Sulcata is definitely a no-go for the 12x14 feet enclosure. No doubt it will be happy to never see 10 gallon tank again. However, if it's a baby sulcata it needs a "closed chamber" enclosure at least 4x2 ft (and in a year or so will outgrow it). Adult sulcata will need a huge space outdoors, maybe tenfold more.
2. A single juvenile redfoot can live in a 14x6 ft. for a while. This will require some efforts to make an enclosure "interesting" and encourage walking around. So you can make two with the space you have now. But at some point (size 10-12 inches) you'll have to expand the pens. I'm not sure that getting a group without a "backup" enclosure is good idea. But I would trust @ZEROPILOT on this as I have only one RF, so no experience here.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

You can see MBD with pyramiding that is not severe. We have seen a couple on this forum, Sulcatas I believe, if I remember right. But not sure we have seen any that are smooth with MBD. Likely won't. If they are doing things right to not let them pyramid, they likely are also doing the proper diet and lighting.

Ok, thank you! I'll try to find these posts. Maybe my definition of "severe" is just different.

 

[wellington]

Ok, thank you! I'll try to find these posts. Maybe my definition of "severe" is just different.

Look at my picture of my leopard, click on the pic by my name. It will show you how severe mine is. That's approx 6 months of not knowing about humidity both on my part and the person I got him from. My rescued one is not as bad but he couldn't walk and was way undersized for his age when I got him.
I have seen much worse and deformed but those ones usually do have MBD a long with many other issues.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Going back to the space requirements:
1. Sulcata is definitely a no-go for the 12x14 feet enclosure. No doubt it will be happy to never see 10 gallon tank again. However, if it's a baby sulcata it needs a "closed chamber" enclosure at least 4x2 ft (and in a year or so will outgrow it). Adult sulcata will need a huge space outdoors, maybe tenfold more.
2. A single juvenile redfoot can live in a 14x6 ft. for a while. This will require some efforts to make an enclosure "interesting" and encourage walking around. So you can make two with the space you have now. But at some point (size 10-12 inches) you'll have to expand the pens. I'm not sure that getting a group without a "backup" enclosure is good idea. But I would trust @ZEROPILOT on this as I have only one RF, so no experience here.

You're correct that the groups don't always work. Even with just all females.
Usually all juveniles seem to work. But that's only because the bullying is less obvious.
Having one tortoise per enclosure is the way to go.
The only other option is a group of mostly females and a few hundred square feet of space with lots of hides.
Anyone trying to put together a group of Redfoot or any other species needs to be ready to remove uncooperative individuals. Male or female. So a 2nd enclosure is needed. This can also be a hospital enclosure for injured tortoises.
I don't elaborate enough on this.
I've had issues with both male and female Redfoot in the past that just don't want other tortoises near them.
Thank you.

 

[SinLA]

Look at my picture of my leopard, click on the pic by my name. It will show you how severe mine is. That's approx 6 months of not knowing about humidity both on my part and the person I got him from. My rescued one is not as bad but he couldn't walk and was way undersized for his age when I got him.
I have seen much worse and deformed but those ones usually do have MBD a long with many other issues.

You sure he doesn't look like that because he's a cubs fan? I think its scientifically proven that years of disappointing baseball seasons can wreak havoc on fans bodies...

 

[wellington]

You sure he doesn't look like that because he's a cubs fan? I think its scientifically proven that years of disappointing baseball seasons can wreak havoc on fans bodies...

Hey, watch it, I love my Cubbies win or lose. I will defend them to my last breath.
That was a good one though lol

 

[wellington]

You're correct that the groups don't always work. Even with just all females.
Usually all juveniles seem to work. But that's only because the bullying is less obvious.
Having one tortoise per enclosure is the way to go.
The only other option is a group of mostly females and a few hundred square feet of space with lots of hides.
Anyone trying to put together a group of Redfoot or any other species needs to be ready to remove uncooperative individuals. Male or female. So a 2nd enclosure is needed. This can also be a hospital enclosure for injured tortoises.
I don't elaborate enough on this.
I've had issues with both male and female Redfoot in the past that just don't want other tortoises near them.
Thank you.

Is the size listed, 4Wx20L big enough for a group of 3 possibly 4 adult RF? Seems to small for that many even if the sex ratio is correct?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Is the size listed, 4Wx20L big enough for a group of 3 possibly 4 adult RF? Seems to small for that many even if the sex ratio is correct?

It's small for 3 juveniles already. And certainly for sub adults. Too small.
I like that 20' wide. But I'd make it at least 10'x20' to avoid needing to make it larger in a few months.
I think with a lot of plants, that'd do for a while while they're still sexually immature
(IF THEY CONTINUE TO GET ALONG)

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Here are the ones I could get, I don't know if they're too young to tell though. I don't see any concave really in photos so maybe all female? Last guy has a longer tail maybe.

They're too young to tell for sure.
Unfortunately, you may see adult agression before the sex can be confirmed.

 

[tim1088]

It's small for 3 juveniles already. And certainly for sub adults. Too small.
I like that 20' wide. But I'd make it at least 10'x20' to avoid needing to make it larger in a few months.
I think with a lot of plants, that'd do for a while while they're still sexually immature
(IF THEY CONTINUE TO GET ALONG)

Thank you for all of your insight and suggestions. I am going to see if we can make it work and in the meantime keep an eye out for people who may have a better setup to take them if we see aggression. The best thing going for me I think is that they've been together since hatch-lings. I will try to add multiple hides or boxes similar to ZeroPilot has set up to give them room to have for themselves.

Once I have them and if we can make it work I'll get a better picture of their condition. It seems you all will be a great help to evaluate them some more with better photos.

 

[2redfootinfl]

Thank you for all of your insight and suggestions. I am going to see if we can make it work and in the meantime keep an eye out for people who may have a better setup to take them if we see aggression. The best thing going for me I think is that they've been together since hatch-lings. I will try to add multiple hides or boxes similar to ZeroPilot has set up to give them room to have for themselves.

Once I have them and if we can make it work I'll get a better picture of their condition. It seems you all will be a great help to evaluate them some more with better photos.

Hi. What did you decide? Redfoots? I’m in south Florida as well, I have two redfoots but also got a 2 year old Sulcata in December.
I have to say feeding the redfoots is more interesting, they eat right out of my hand and they do enjoy being together. They’ve been together since they were born. I obviously had them separated, but the types of food you can feed a Sulcata is so limited.

 

[tim1088]

I ended up getting the sulcata, mainly based on how it was being cared for. It was in a tiny glass 10 gallon aquarium and although our enclosure isn't ideal, it is SIGNIFICANTLY better for him than where he was. The red foots we found would've been awesome too but this on was just so much more in need of a new home so we are loving it. I'll get new pictures up here soon to show you guys.

 

[Maggie3fan]

This is Mary Knobbins who came to me about 5 years ago. She was rescued by a guy from Corvallis who went to Portland to watch the riots with antifa and The Proud Boys, and found her living on the downtown streets with heat from a fire barrel and being fed hamburgers. So he tort napped her and brought her to our local wild life rescue...and they called me...she has no hint of mbd...her new growth is smooth and he pyramids have stopped growing

https://tortoiseforum.org/account/avatar