Spinach yes or no?

[Alan RF]

I've been reading 'practical care and maintenance of red foot tortoise geochelone carbonaria in captivity' it states spinach as a no no but I've read on lots of care sheets on red foots that they can but only in small amounts? I gave Alan spinach 2 days ago and he seems ok but I'm worried since reading this book!

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

Have you read Mark's library? If you haven't here you go https://sites.google.com/site/tortoiselibrary/

 

[Alan RF]

Have you read Mark's library? If you haven't here you go https://sites.google.com/site/tortoiselibrary/

Yeah it's says spinach on marks library and this book I'm reading says it's a big no.....confused!

 

[Jacqui]

Spinach is one of those foods that feed in too high of an amount and for too long or too much of the diet can cause health issues. Atleast health issues in other animals, we don't normally know any of this specifically about tortoises. With that in mind, spinach is not a bad food and does have some good nutritional values going for it, but you need to feed it as part of a balanced and wide variety diet. So to put it simply, a little spinach every so often in the diet is perfectly fine.

---

Saying this or that food is "bad" is along the lines of saying this or that plant is "toxic" to tortoises. We just do not have enough data to make an accurate statement, so we instead look at how it works with other animals, mainly mammals. If they had problems then we classify it as "bad" or "toxic".Problem is, a tortoise is not the same as they are. It has a different digestive system, different ways to handle food input,different metabolism, just simply they are not mammals. With this in mind and as our knowledge grows, we are slowly losing some of this rigid thinking and instead replacing it with more flexible thinking based on observations from keepers.

 

[Alan RF]

Spinach is one of those foods that feed in too high of an amount and for too long or too much of the diet can cause health issues. Atleast health issues in other animals, we don't normally know any of this specifically about tortoises. With that in mind, spinach is not a bad food and does have some good nutritional values going for it, but you need to feed it as part of a balanced and wide variety diet. So to put it simply, a little spinach every so often in the diet is perfectly fine.

---

Saying this or that food is "bad" is along the lines of saying this or that plant is "toxic" to tortoises. We just do not have enough data to make an accurate statement, so we instead look at how it works with other animals, mainly mammals. If they had problems then we classify it as "bad" or "toxic".Problem is, a tortoise is not the same as they are. It has a different digestive system, different ways to handle food input,different metabolism, just simply they are not mammals. With this in mind and as our knowledge grows, we are slowly losing some of this rigid thinking and instead replacing it with more flexible thinking based on observations from keepers.

---

Thanks jacqui so much for this! The book confused me totally!

 

[Redstrike]

Jacqui has already done an excellent job here, just wanted to share a really nicely written thread by Kristina that may also offer a good perspective (agreeable to Jacqui's, of course!):

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Spinach-it-is-not-as-bad-as-you-may-think#axzz252Dx4XfT

Mike Pingleton has some humurous lines in his book about secondary compounds and they really sum up the rediculous notions people have for some foods that aren't "perfectly balanced" or contain some secondary compounds we don't think are good for tortoises. Here's one of my favorites concerning spinach and oxalates:

"Absolutely no spinach! It'll pull the calcium right out of your bones!"

Thinking of stating something like this at the dinner table really puts this into perspective for me. I'll leave the other funny quotes for anyone that hasn't read the book.

 

[Alan RF]

Jacqui has already done an excellent job here, just wanted to share a really nicely written thread by Kristina that may also offer a good perspective (agreeable to Jacqui's, of course!):

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Spinach-it-is-not-as-bad-as-you-may-think#axzz252Dx4XfT

Mike Pingleton has some humurous lines in his book about secondary compounds and they really sum up the rediculous notions people have for some foods that aren't "perfectly balanced" or contain some secondary compounds we don't think are good for tortoises. Here's one of my favorites concerning spinach and oxalates:

"Absolutely no spinach! It'll pull the calcium right out of your bones!"

Thinking of stating something like this at the dinner table really puts this into perspective for me. I'll leave the other funny quotes for anyone that hasn't read the book.

Ha ha I'll read this but while your on about that book he states feeding them 2 days then not feeding them for the next 2 days??? I've not done this, this is the first ive read! What do you think?

 

[Madkins007]

May I ask what book you are reading?

Alternating feeding days is an interesting possibility. Few wild tortoises eat every day- most of them will wander and graze on what little forage they can find. As long as some straggly stuff is all they can get, they will generally eat every day as long as it is not too hot. When they find something better- a fruit fall, carrion, patch oif lush forage, etc., then they will gorge until stuffed and sleep- often for several days.

In captivity, something happens and the will gorge daily, which leads to obesity. You can control this in several ways-
- Calculate and limit calories
- Offer daily small meals
- Skip feeding days
- etc.

In the Library, I suggest a sort of alternative that I think better matches the wild processes. Offer all the low carbs/low fats high fiber/high calcium stuff you want- greens, flowers, mushrooms, leaves, etc. Offer high carb/high fat stuff in very limited amounts a couple times a week- more if they are outdoors in a larger pen.

Whichever process works best for your situation should work well.

 

[Redstrike]

Ha ha I'll read this but while your on about that book he states feeding them 2 days then not feeding them for the next 2 days??? I've not done this, this is the first ive read! What do you think?

I just referenced page 85 of his book concerning frequency and serving size per feeding (http://www.pingleton.com/redfoot/redfoots.htm). He breaks them into two categories:

1. Hatchling/juvenile <1 year old - feed everyday

2. Juvenile >1 year/Adult - feed every other day or every third day depending on how much you provide at each feeding.

I share Madkins007 approach, finding it logical to feed them reasonable portions of what he described as low-calorie/carb diet everyday regardless of age, limiting high-sugar and protein intake to a couple times/week. I may throw a fasting day or two in once they are adults, but mine are far from that. I would count excessive as more than the tortoise could eat in 20-30 minutes and/or >1/4 their body weight in food. I generally shoot for a volume of food (not mass!) that is ~ 2/3 the size of my tortoises, but this changes when you throw more dense or sugary items in (fruits, animal proteins, Mazuri, Zoo Med, mushrooms etc.). Recall mushrooms are not a plant and are more closely related to us. This is good because you can get some amino acids from them that are not in plants but not nearly as many as you would from other animal proteins (eggs, invertebrates & vertebrates, etc.). They also contain few carbohydrates, so they're really great to throw into your feeding rotation.

Bottom line, their metabolism is greatly reduced compared to "warm-blooded" animals (tortoises are poikilotherms). So we really don't need to feed them like we would our furred/feathered companions.

 

[Alan RF]

May I ask what book you are reading?

Alternating feeding days is an interesting possibility. Few wild tortoises eat every day- most of them will wander and graze on what little forage they can find. As long as some straggly stuff is all they can get, they will generally eat every day as long as it is not too hot. When they find something better- a fruit fall, carrion, patch oif lush forage, etc., then they will gorge until stuffed and sleep- often for several days.

In captivity, something happens and the will gorge daily, which leads to obesity. You can control this in several ways-
- Calculate and limit calories
- Offer daily small meals
- Skip feeding days
- etc.

In the Library, I suggest a sort of alternative that I think better matches the wild processes. Offer all the low carbs/low fats high fiber/high calcium stuff you want- greens, flowers, mushrooms, leaves, etc. Offer high carb/high fat stuff in very limited amounts a couple times a week- more if they are outdoors in a larger pen.

Whichever process works best for your situation should work well.

The book madkins is the mike pingleton 'practical care and maintenance of the red foot tortoise geochelone carbonaria in captivity'. I've taken into account everything you've said. I've noticed there are days when he's not interested in food or he won't eat very much. I do Offer all the low carbs/low fats high fiber/high calcium stuff and but minute amounts mixed in or none at all. Thank you for your advice and time much appreciated sam

---

I just referenced page 85 of his book concerning frequency and serving size per feeding (http://www.pingleton.com/redfoot/redfoots.htm). He breaks them into two categories:

1. Hatchling/juvenile <1 year old - feed everyday

2. Juvenile >1 year/Adult - feed every other day or every third day depending on how much you provide at each feeding.

I share Madkins007 approach, finding it logical to feed them reasonable portions of what he described as low-calorie/carb diet everyday regardless of age, limiting high-sugar and protein intake to a couple times/week. I may throw a fasting day or two in once they are adults, but mine are far from that. I would count excessive as more than the tortoise could eat in 20-30 minutes and/or >1/4 their body weight in food. I generally shoot for a volume of food (not mass!) that is ~ 2/3 the size of my tortoises, but this changes when you throw more dense or sugary items in (fruits, animal proteins, Mazuri, Zoo Med, mushrooms etc.). Recall mushrooms are not a plant and are more closely related to us. This is good because you can get some amino acids from them that are not in plants but not nearly as many as you would from other animal proteins (eggs, invertebrates & vertebrates, etc.). They also contain few carbohydrates, so they're really great to throw into your feeding rotation.

Bottom line, their metabolism is greatly reduced compared to "warm-blooded" animals (tortoises are poikilotherms). So we really don't need to feed them like we would our furred/feathered companions.

The book I have only goes up to page 36!
On page 15 it says how much? how often? I like the quote 'missing food for a few days will not cause harm, but your tortoise will certainly will be hungry!' well why do it?!! Ha ha. I like madkins approach too! When he gets older I might do a fasting day too! He's a year old so is that juvenile? When are they classed as adult? Is it 10?

 

[Redstrike]

May I ask what book you are reading?

Alternating feeding days is an interesting possibility. Few wild tortoises eat every day- most of them will wander and graze on what little forage they can find. As long as some straggly stuff is all they can get, they will generally eat every day as long as it is not too hot. When they find something better- a fruit fall, carrion, patch oif lush forage, etc., then they will gorge until stuffed and sleep- often for several days.

In captivity, something happens and the will gorge daily, which leads to obesity. You can control this in several ways-
- Calculate and limit calories
- Offer daily small meals
- Skip feeding days
- etc.

In the Library, I suggest a sort of alternative that I think better matches the wild processes. Offer all the low carbs/low fats high fiber/high calcium stuff you want- greens, flowers, mushrooms, leaves, etc. Offer high carb/high fat stuff in very limited amounts a couple times a week- more if they are outdoors in a larger pen.

Whichever process works best for your situation should work well.

The book madkins is the mike pingleton 'practical care and maintenance of the red foot tortoise geochelone carbonaria in captivity'. I've taken into account everything you've said. I've noticed there are days when he's not interested in food or he won't eat very much. I do Offer all the low carbs/low fats high fiber/high calcium stuff and but minute amounts mixed in or none at all. Thank you for your advice and time much appreciated sam

---

I just referenced page 85 of his book concerning frequency and serving size per feeding (http://www.pingleton.com/redfoot/redfoots.htm). He breaks them into two categories:

1. Hatchling/juvenile <1 year old - feed everyday

2. Juvenile >1 year/Adult - feed every other day or every third day depending on how much you provide at each feeding.

I share Madkins007 approach, finding it logical to feed them reasonable portions of what he described as low-calorie/carb diet everyday regardless of age, limiting high-sugar and protein intake to a couple times/week. I may throw a fasting day or two in once they are adults, but mine are far from that. I would count excessive as more than the tortoise could eat in 20-30 minutes and/or >1/4 their body weight in food. I generally shoot for a volume of food (not mass!) that is ~ 2/3 the size of my tortoises, but this changes when you throw more dense or sugary items in (fruits, animal proteins, Mazuri, Zoo Med, mushrooms etc.). Recall mushrooms are not a plant and are more closely related to us. This is good because you can get some amino acids from them that are not in plants but not nearly as many as you would from other animal proteins (eggs, invertebrates & vertebrates, etc.). They also contain few carbohydrates, so they're really great to throw into your feeding rotation.

Bottom line, their metabolism is greatly reduced compared to "warm-blooded" animals (tortoises are poikilotherms). So we really don't need to feed them like we would our furred/feathered companions.

The book I have only goes up to page 36!
On page 15 it says how much? how often? I like the quote 'missing food for a few days will not cause harm, but your tortoise will certainly will be hungry!' well why do it?!! Ha ha. I like madkins approach too! When he gets older I might do a fasting day too! He's a year old so is that juvenile? When are they classed as adult? Is it 10?

---

We're referencing different books, I was refering to "The Redfoot Manual", thus the confusion!

I count an adult as being sexually mature. A nearly full size individual that is not yet mature I would refer to as a sub-adult. This definition provides flexibility as all tortoises grow at different rates, allowing us to circumvent any arbitrary age assignment for "adult".

Probably wouldn't be any harm in having a fasting day or two for a subadult tortoise greater than a year old.