Stan and Ollie from London

Leaflysock

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It's great to finally join this forum. I have been quietly reading up on all things tortoise for the past six months, because I wanted to ensure that I gave my torts the very best care possible.
I was originally looking for a single Hermanns tortoise, but wanted a male tortoise and so had to look for a more mature tort that was old enough to reliably sex. I am based in a London suburb and was surprised to find an owner offering two adult male Hermanns, together with their table and other equipment. I understand that it is advised not to keep two male tortoises, as they will fight and one will seek to establish dominance. Two females are sometimes ok and that the ideal male: female ration is two or three females to one male.
The current owner had inherited both the torts from his brother, who in turn had them from hatchlings, and they have never been apart in six years. He refused to sell me just one, so I am now the proud guardian of Both Stan and Ollie. Although they are both six and were born on the same day, according to their documentation, Stan is a little smaller than Ollie, hence the names. The owner tells me they very occasionally fall out but that they have never fought. Neither tortoise showed any signs of injury, when I looked at them. Having had them for a few days now, I find I am really enjoying the interplay between them, rather than the lonesome wandering a of a single tortoise. After hand feeding them today, Ollie went into his large hide but spread eagled himself, so poor Stan was blocked from entering. Rather than move him, I decided to employ some basic psychology. I enticed Ollie, not difficult, with some cactus leaves to the far corner of their table, whereupon he began devouring said food excitedly. His munching, or perhaps the smell caused Ollie to turn his head and one eagle black eye spied his companion eating. He 'rushed' out in order not to lose out and then Ollie happily walked into their little snuggle cave.
My question is, do you think this harmony will continue? I understand that it's possible when they get fully sexually mature, that there may be trouble ahead, but would the fact they were from the same clutch and have never been separated have any bearing on this situation at all?
Many thanks in advance for any advice given.
 

wellington

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Hello and Welcome. No it wont continue and there most likely is lots of bullying already going on that the inexperienced dont pick up on.
Being in a inside enclosure I'm betting it's way too small for one adult let alone two. This alone will cause bullying.
The bullying may be why one is smaller too.
 

Ray--Opo

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Welcome, pics of Stan and Ollie would be great. If you send a pic of the enclosure. We can help you get the guys all set up.
 

Yvonne G

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You have already described classic signs of dominance. Blocking one out of the cave, snuggling, following, sitting on the food. . . it all looks peaceful to us, but in reality, one is trying to chase the other out of the territory.

In think if you set them up separately, you will see the smaller one start to grow and soon catch up in size to the larger one.
 

Yvonne G

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. . . oh, and - Welcome to the Forum!!
 

Blackdog1714

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Sadly nature most always only allows for one dominant male per group. When you look at how Hippos and even Chimps exert dominance as the new male you wouldn't think twice about seperating your boys. Awesome that you are giving them a new home. Please enclude photos
 

Leaflysock

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Hello and Welcome. No it wont continue and there most likely is lots of bullying already going on that the inexperienced dont pick up on.
Being in a inside enclosure I'm betting it's way too small for one adult let alone two. This alone will cause bullying.
The bullying may be why one is smaller too.
Whilst I welcome any and all constructive feedback, I, like most people, don't enjoy being patronised. Telling me that you bet the enclosure is too small for one, let alone two tortoises, without any information on which to make that judgement is a little off. The table is two metres long, including the cave/sleeping area and 99 cm wide.
Strangely, after watching them for the last few days, it appears that the smaller tortoise is the one who is slightly more dominant.
Someone is always home and the tort table is in the corner of a room by a radiator.
I spent months researching the correct substrate, indoor setup, lignting, heating, food and exercise requirements, as I want the tortoises to be as content and stress free as possible.
I am already constructing a large outdoor enclosure for the summer months, with sppririate heating and lighting. I am desinging this so that the the tortoises will each habe their own run amd sleeping areas but will be able to rotate a section to provide a common area. I'm mindful of the fact that these tortoises have been together for 6 uears, so want to manage their transition to their bachelor pads.
I plan to hibernste them next winter, as I understand this is something that they would nsturally do. I plan to use the fridge method at 5 degrees, with regular weighing and a perkod of gasting prior to hibernation. So from the warmer months there should be no issues as they will have the much larger outside enclosure in the summer amd will be hibernated duting the winter. I didn't want to risk hibernating them after a recent move and before I could observe their relative health.
There are sadly a lot of people that think tortlises are an easy low maintenance pet, that enjoys regular handling and will happily live in a box. I am not one of these people and plan to give my tortoises the very best possible care. Hipefully this care will be helped by the shared knowledge and experience from members of this site, for which I will be grateful. It is worth noting though, that some members are very quick to ciriticise or make rushed assumptions, simply because I am a new tortoise carer. The fact that I joined this forum to seek help and advice in the forst place, shluld demonstrate that I only want the best for my tortoises.
On that note, in my research I came accross a post where a reptile specislist suggested that bathing tortoises is not necessary. As long as they have access to fresh clean water and the water they extract from their diet. This seems to fly in the face of the widely held opinion that batning tortoises is good practice.
Before I have the original poster of the 'too small for one tortoise' bet assume that I currently provide water through a hamster feeding tube... I would like to point out that I purchased a correct bathing tray, that is large enough for the tortoises to sit in and drae in water at both ends.
I have also purchased a video camera tied into my Wi-Fi, so that when I'm away from the house, I can Big Bother on my torts, to check all is well. This camera setup, rsther amusingly also allows me to speak remotely though it's speaker. So today I was able to ask the other half to clean out the water tray whilst I was waiting for a train.
Thanks in advance for any helpful comments. I will upload a licture if the indoor enclosure as soon as I've worked out how to do it, and will do the same with my kutdoor project.
 

wellington

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Whilst I welcome any and all constructive feedback, I, like most people, don't enjoy being patronised. Telling me that you bet the enclosure is too small for one, let alone two tortoises, without any information on which to make that judgement is a little off. The table is two metres long, including the cave/sleeping area and 99 cm wide.
Strangely, after watching them for the last few days, it appears that the smaller tortoise is the one who is slightly more dominant.
Someone is always home and the tort table is in the corner of a room by a radiator.
I spent months researching the correct substrate, indoor setup, lignting, heating, food and exercise requirements, as I want the tortoises to be as content and stress free as possible.
I am already constructing a large outdoor enclosure for the summer months, with sppririate heating and lighting. I am desinging this so that the the tortoises will each habe their own run amd sleeping areas but will be able to rotate a section to provide a common area. I'm mindful of the fact that these tortoises have been together for 6 uears, so want to manage their transition to their bachelor pads.
I plan to hibernste them next winter, as I understand this is something that they would nsturally do. I plan to use the fridge method at 5 degrees, with regular weighing and a perkod of gasting prior to hibernation. So from the warmer months there should be no issues as they will have the much larger outside enclosure in the summer amd will be hibernated duting the winter. I didn't want to risk hibernating them after a recent move and before I could observe their relative health.
There are sadly a lot of people that think tortlises are an easy low maintenance pet, that enjoys regular handling and will happily live in a box. I am not one of these people and plan to give my tortoises the very best possible care. Hipefully this care will be helped by the shared knowledge and experience from members of this site, for which I will be grateful. It is worth noting though, that some members are very quick to ciriticise or make rushed assumptions, simply because I am a new tortoise carer. The fact that I joined this forum to seek help and advice in the forst place, shluld demonstrate that I only want the best for my tortoises.
On that note, in my research I came accross a post where a reptile specislist suggested that bathing tortoises is not necessary. As long as they have access to fresh clean water and the water they extract from their diet. This seems to fly in the face of the widely held opinion that batning tortoises is good practice.
Before I have the original poster of the 'too small for one tortoise' bet assume that I currently provide water through a hamster feeding tube... I would like to point out that I purchased a correct bathing tray, that is large enough for the tortoises to sit in and drae in water at both ends.
I have also purchased a video camera tied into my Wi-Fi, so that when I'm away from the house, I can Big Bother on my torts, to check all is well. This camera setup, rsther amusingly also allows me to speak remotely though it's speaker. So today I was able to ask the other half to clean out the water tray whilst I was waiting for a train.
Thanks in advance for any helpful comments. I will upload a licture if the indoor enclosure as soon as I've worked out how to do it, and will do the same with my kutdoor project.
There is no table the size one tortoise would expect too have in the wild. So no, I dont have to no his big it us when I read/hear table! Sorry you dont like the truthful answers you are getting. Most dont. When they realize we are trying to help and that we care about the tortoises well being, because we have seen what can happen and you haven't, well, eventually the human will take a step back, and take the help being offered.
 

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