Strange behaviour of my 4 month old baby sulcata

[kennrocks]

Hi guys, pretty new here but have been lurking around the forums reading threads ;P

Brief Introduction
Ok so a quick introduction, I'm from Malaysia and currently own these 2 babies (hatched in March 2016), Chomper(to the left, with a straight line pattern in the center of the shell on top) and Stomper(to the right, has gaps between the shell pattern on top). Their diet consists of Bok Choy, Hibiscus Leaves, Kale and Chinese Kale. I also give 5 small pellets of LS Mazuri Pellets. Chomper isn't much of a Mazuri fan, more of leafy greens where else Stomper only eats mazuri. I also sprinkle a pinch of calcium (from sun dried cuttle bone I picked up from the beach) TWICE a week on their food. I soak them for 20 mins 2-3 time PER DAY to make sure I get rid of any calcium stones in their system. Their poop is shiny dark green and solid but not too dry.

Minor History
Chomper was diagnosed with RNS a few weeks back but recovered swiftly on Baytril. Quarantined during her RNS and left a gap of 3 days upon recovery before reuniting them.


Enclosure
Bedding consists of Timothy Hay , a PVC pipe cut in half for shelter and a water dish (they can climb it but might be a bit of a challenge, might change it to a shorter one). This is typically natural sun light (Malaysia being a tropical climate, i get to save on MVBs haha). I will usually put an egg crate above the enclosure to provide extra shading just in case they overheat. I have lifted it for the sake of the picture.


Current Issue
Ok so now that we are all friends with Chomper and Stomper, I realized Stomper does not have the strength to tear leaves apart (which might be why he prefers Mazuri cause it's soft) and also his bad aim in getting food. He often misses his food when approaching it. He walks fine, but used to walk way more, hence naming him Stomper. I do suspect it might be a cause of MBD as he is quite weak when he eats but am not too sure. Any pros here can give me a hand? Much appreciated!

 

[kennrocks]

Oh I'd like to note that I had them both for about a month already and when they came in both had soft shell obviously as they are still hatchlings. However, I've noticed that Chomper has started developing a harder shell where else Stomper still has a soft springy shell. He walks fine, clear eyes. Only concern is his ability to eat. Usually upon missing his food, he will give up and just go back to sleep. Chomper is about 50grams, the last measurement I had at the vet. Stomper is slightly lighter and smaller. Will get a small weighing scale for recording and monitoring purposes

 

[Tom]

Read these first:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

You'll see what you need to do differently. Here are a few things I noticed:
1. You only need to soak once a day.
2. Your substrate is too dry. Trade it for something like orchid bark.
3. They need a humid hide.
4. They need to be separated. Tortoises should not be kept in pairs.
5. They need a much larger enclosure.
6. They need more of a variety of greens and they need some grass too. You can get them each to eat both types of food by mincing the greens and mixing the soaked Mazrui into the pile thoroughly.
7. Do they have a basking lamp when they are indoors, so they can warm up more than ambient? They need one. Temperature under the lamp should reach about 37. Being too cool, for too long and not being able to arm up is the most likely cause of a respiratory infection. The stress of living as a pair would further hamper the immune system.

 

[kennrocks]

Read these first:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

You'll see what you need to do differently. Here are a few things I noticed:
1. You only need to soak once a day.
2. Your substrate is too dry. Trade it for something like orchid bark.
3. They need a humid hide.
4. They need to be separated. Tortoises should not be kept in pairs.
5. They need a much larger enclosure.
6. They need more of a variety of greens and they need some grass too. You can get them each to eat both types of food by mincing the greens and mixing the soaked Mazrui into the pile thoroughly.
7. Do they have a basking lamp when they are indoors, so they can warm up more than ambient? They need one. Temperature under the lamp should reach about 37. Being too cool, for too long and not being able to arm up is the most likely cause of a respiratory infection. The stress of living as a pair would further hamper the immune system.

Yupp I did go through those threads. Will take note on your points, gonna get a basking lamp for them soon. Temperatures in Malaysia are about 26 - 32 degrees and I understand indoor temperature would vary, humidity here also goes about 60-80% tho, would they still need a humid hide? just double checking haha. They are located at the back kitchen without airconditioning or any fans. This is going to be a temporary enclosure. I intend to get a large fiber glass tank for them.

Apart from enclosure issues, what do you think could be the cause that he's having issues eating? the weakness in his jaw or is he just not as developed as the other yet? Any nutrients that I'm missing out? :\

 

[Big Charlie]

Yupp I did go through those threads. Will take note on your points, gonna get a basking lamp for them soon. Temperatures in Malaysia are about 26 - 32 degrees and I understand indoor temperature would vary, humidity here also goes about 60-80% tho, would they still need a humid hide? just double checking haha. They are located at the back kitchen without airconditioning or any fans. This is going to be a temporary enclosure. I intend to get a large fiber glass tank for them.

Apart from enclosure issues, what do you think could be the cause that he's having issues eating? the weakness in his jaw or is he just not as developed as the other yet? Any nutrients that I'm missing out? :\

You need to separate them as soon as possible. Your larger tortoise might be intimidating the little one, making her afraid to eat.

 

[kennrocks]

You need to separate them as soon as possible. Your larger tortoise might be intimidating the little one, making her afraid to eat.

That would make sense. Hence with the inability to eat, it prolly got weaker by the day? Will do it now. Thank alot!

 

[kennrocks]

Yupp I did go through those threads. Will take note on your points, gonna get a basking lamp for them soon. Temperatures in Malaysia are about 26 - 32 degrees and I understand indoor temperature would vary, humidity here also goes about 60-80% tho, would they still need a humid hide? just double checking haha. They are located at the back kitchen without airconditioning or any fans. This is going to be a temporary enclosure. I intend to get a large fiber glass tank for them.

Apart from enclosure issues, what do you think could be the cause that he's having issues eating? the weakness in his jaw or is he just not as developed as the other yet? Any nutrients that I'm missing out? :\

You need to separate them as soon as possible. Your larger tortoise might be intimidating the little one, making her afraid to eat.

Separated them and Stomper started eating like usual! Omg how foolish of me hahahaha

 

[kennrocks]

Read these first:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

You'll see what you need to do differently. Here are a few things I noticed:
1. You only need to soak once a day.
2. Your substrate is too dry. Trade it for something like orchid bark.
3. They need a humid hide.
4. They need to be separated. Tortoises should not be kept in pairs.
5. They need a much larger enclosure.
6. They need more of a variety of greens and they need some grass too. You can get them each to eat both types of food by mincing the greens and mixing the soaked Mazrui into the pile thoroughly.
7. Do they have a basking lamp when they are indoors, so they can warm up more than ambient? They need one. Temperature under the lamp should reach about 37. Being too cool, for too long and not being able to arm up is the most likely cause of a respiratory infection. The stress of living as a pair would further hamper the immune system.

Btw Tom, my friend who works in SIngapore Zoo mentioned that the tortoises there with these substrate irritates their eyes and actually causes them to become watery. They might be coconut husk, would orchid bark do a better job? just curious as I will be getting these items by this weekend

 

[Gillian M]

Cute little torts! GOD bless.

And a very warm welcome to the forum.

 

[BrianWI]

One option that works for me is the fine coconut coir covered with course coconut coir. The fine holds moisture, the course keeps the small stuff off the tortoise.

 

[kennrocks]

One option that works for me is the fine coconut coir covered with course coconut coir. The fine holds moisture, the course keeps the small stuff off the tortoise.

Thanks Gillian!

One option that works for me is the fine coconut coir covered with course coconut coir. The fine holds moisture, the course keeps the small stuff off the tortoise.

Noted Brian! will those substrates irritate their eyes? As I know in the desert they do face alot of dirt so it should be absolutely fine right?

 

[BrianWI]

It should not irritate anything. I have used it for many years.

 

[Kaliman1962]

where do you get fine coconut coir & course?

 

[BrianWI]

I get the fine from gardening stores as it is cheaper. Comes in compressed bricks, look for the ORGANIC kind as it will have no chemicals.
The coarse I get from the local PetSmart.

 

[kennrocks]

Read these first:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

You'll see what you need to do differently. Here are a few things I noticed:
1. You only need to soak once a day.
2. Your substrate is too dry. Trade it for something like orchid bark.
3. They need a humid hide.
4. They need to be separated. Tortoises should not be kept in pairs.
5. They need a much larger enclosure.
6. They need more of a variety of greens and they need some grass too. You can get them each to eat both types of food by mincing the greens and mixing the soaked Mazrui into the pile thoroughly.
7. Do they have a basking lamp when they are indoors, so they can warm up more than ambient? They need one. Temperature under the lamp should reach about 37. Being too cool, for too long and not being able to arm up is the most likely cause of a respiratory infection. The stress of living as a pair would further hamper the immune system.

Hey Tom, I realized his neck is pretty swollen? Not too sure and he started spitting bubbles even when not under the sun. so far twice this morning already. Is it a possible cause of RI? I saw previous forumers bringing this up and someone even suspected pneumonia. Should I administer some baytril for him?

Symptoms:
- gasping for air
- spitting bubbles
- lack of appetite
- weak jaw that cannot tear vege apart, feeding only on mazuri now

I checked his nostrils and there are no signs of any foreign object (hay, debris) or mucus. Eyes are clear and poop is alright. Shell is a little softer than the other sulcata I'm having. Both hatched from the same batch.

 

[kennrocks]

*update: bottom shell center seems to be worryingly soft

 

[Fredkas]

Please read tom's thread above that tom give it to you. Copy as same as possible especially the enclosure. At minimal, copy the exact temp for the tortoise.
I live in indonesia. Our climate is still a bit cold for them sometimes. Remember i said sometimes.
So for the tort that already have a sick symptoms, i strongly recommended to watch carefully for the temp. A cold tort is horrible.
Soak in luke warm water. Direct tap water i think is not enough, it is too cold for stomper.

You don't have inside enclosure or what? It looks like outdoor enclosure. Buy a temp and watch out for the night temp. Here is rainy season, the night temp can be 24. Watch out . I think you need 28 minimal, that is the temp i kept at night.

The MBD things, as long as you follow all the Tom's link, all you can do is wait and pray stomper get better.
Conclusion=
Calcium + sun 30min/day minimal = no MBD.
Early RI, do not go below 28 at night, 30 at daytime, hottest part at 38 daytime. than hopefully the RI will be gone.
Actually there is a lot of factor for MBD and RI, i can't explain all of it. Please read a lot and tell us the information as many as possible.
Soon, there will be more experienced members hop in.

Sorry for my bad english. I am trying lol.

 

[kennrocks]

Please read tom's thread above that tom give it to you. Copy as same as possible especially the enclosure. At minimal, copy the exact temp for the tortoise.
I live in indonesia. Our climate is still a bit cold for them sometimes. Remember i said sometimes.
So for the tort that already have a sick symptoms, i strongly recommended to watch carefully for the temp. A cold tort is horrible.
Soak in luke warm water. Direct tap water i think is not enough, it is too cold for stomper.

You don't have inside enclosure or what? It looks like outdoor enclosure. Buy a temp and watch out for the night temp. Here is rainy season, the night temp can be 24. Watch out . I think you need 28 minimal, that is the temp i kept at night.

The MBD things, as long as you follow all the Tom's link, all you can do is wait and pray stomper get better.
Conclusion=
Calcium + sun 30min/day minimal = no MBD.
Early RI, do not go below 28 at night, 30 at daytime, hottest part at 38 daytime. than hopefully the RI will be gone.
Actually there is a lot of factor for MBD and RI, i can't explain all of it. Please read a lot and tell us the information as many as possible.
Soon, there will be more experienced members hop in.

Sorry for my bad english. I am trying lol.

Yup. Already ordered a CHE to maintain night temps. Coconut coir checked too. Will go get course coconut coir or orchid in a bit to add on to its substrate. Oh I mix warm water for soaking, no direct tap for sure. haha. Thanks guys!

 

[Fredkas]

Yup. Already ordered a CHE to maintain night temps. Coconut coir checked too. Will go get course coconut coir or orchid in a bit to add on to its substrate. Oh I mix warm water for soaking, no direct tap for sure. haha. Thanks guys!

Im sorry. I make a wrong statement. Daytime 38 is the temp directly under the lamp which is what we called basking spot.. So the temp around basking spot should be around 33.
Keep us updated will you? Hope stomper get well soon.

 

[kennrocks]

Im sorry. I make a wrong statement. Daytime 38 is the temp directly under the lamp which is what we called basking spot.. So the temp around basking spot should be around 33.
Keep us updated will you? Hope stomper get well soon.

I will. I noticed a slight diarrhea during soaking. Will monitor closely. Putting him on some Baytril at the moment.