Struggling with new tortoise

[StuartMonifieth]

About a month ago my granddaughter and I bought an 18 month old Hermann tortoise from our local experienced reptile dealer who appears to sell tortoises with no issues. However we have struggled to get 'him' to eat and within two weeks he had dropped from 62g to 52g. We have followed the instructions from the dealer (and checked on advice from this Forum) , Unfortunately the autumn has arrived here and at times there is frost outside so few weeds available. We have an outside pen as well but there were only 2 brief opportunities for being in the sunshine. So we have had to rely on the greens (lettuce, kale, peppers, etc) from the supermarket plus soaked dried food plus calcium and vitamin powder. Two weeks ago we took him back to the shop. She put him in the pen, added some greens (from the supermarket) and he immediately started eating them. We left him for a long weekend and he went up to 56g and returned home with the advice not to hover over him while he is eating. Weighed yesterday back down to 52g. He has UV lamp for daytime (about 80-90 degrees) and a heated pad on side of enclosure at night time (about 60-70 degrees). We don't want him to suffer and would rather pass him on to someone else if he won't eat. Help please.

 

[TammyJ]

Hi and welcome. You need the correct conditions of temperature, lights and humidity. Once that's been established and is consistent, the tortoise will eat well if you offer the right food and he is not sick. An expert will be along to help. @wellington @Tom

 

[wellington]

A heated pad on the side wall will not heat and open top table
Get the enclosure enclosed and day heat should be 80 all over with a basking area of 95+100
Night heat should be 70-75. All heat should come from above with lights and ceramic heat emitters for night.
Be sure the enclosure is brightly lit during the day like it's nice and sunny out.
Get things correct and he should start to eat.
Humidity should be 80%
A pet store is not a reliable source for buying tortoises.
Post pictures of your enclosure so we can better help tweak it.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

What kind is the UV lamp you are using? Is it only for heat or a combo bulb with both UVA and UVB?

Getting the right temperatures is important for their digestive system and temperatures too low may cause him not to eat.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

About a month ago my granddaughter and I bought an 18 month old Hermann tortoise from our local experienced reptile dealer who appears to sell tortoises with no issues. However we have struggled to get 'him' to eat and within two weeks he had dropped from 62g to 52g. We have followed the instructions from the dealer (and checked on advice from this Forum) , Unfortunately the autumn has arrived here and at times there is frost outside so few weeds available. We have an outside pen as well but there were only 2 brief opportunities for being in the sunshine. So we have had to rely on the greens (lettuce, kale, peppers, etc) from the supermarket plus soaked dried food plus calcium and vitamin powder. Two weeks ago we took him back to the shop. She put him in the pen, added some greens (from the supermarket) and he immediately started eating them. We left him for a long weekend and he went up to 56g and returned home with the advice not to hover over him while he is eating. Weighed yesterday back down to 52g. He has UV lamp for daytime (about 80-90 degrees) and a heated pad on side of enclosure at night time (about 60-70 degrees). We don't want him to suffer and would rather pass him on to someone else if he won't eat. Help please.

Welcome from a fellow uk member! I think you’ve potentially been sold the typical wrong equipment and starter set up, sorry about that, it happens all too often and we have to tell new members, a compact all in one screw in uv lamp isn’t the safest or most efficient option and I’m thinking that’s what you have by the sounds of it? It needs to be reaching 95-100f just directly underneath, the rest ranging 75-80 during the day, to make up ambient temp and provide night heat, I’d ditch the heat pad and install a ceramic heat emitter which is a non light emitting heat bulb. As he’s younger he would benefit from higher humidity, which can only be maintained in a closed set up.

I think you’ll find this indoor housing thread I made useful, it covers correct equipment(lighting, heating, uv), levels, importance of closed chamber for younger growing torts, appropriately maintaining humidity, substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything and a really handy diet link to check out! I’d stop feeding peppers as they are too high in sugar for these guys!

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

This one covers some different closed chamber options

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

This one can also really good to familiarise yourself with, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

I hope they help! I know it’s a lot to take in, so please take all the time you need to read and come back with any further questions

 

[StuartMonifieth]

Welcome from a fellow uk member! I think you’ve potentially been sold the typical wrong equipment and starter set up, sorry about that, it happens all too often and we have to tell new members, a compact all in one screw in uv lamp isn’t the safest or most efficient option and I’m thinking that’s what you have by the sounds of it? It needs to be reaching 95-100f just directly underneath, the rest ranging 75-80 during the day, to make up ambient temp and provide night heat, I’d ditch the heat pad and install a ceramic heat emitter which is a non light emitting heat bulb. As he’s younger he would benefit from higher humidity, which can only be maintained in a closed set up.

I think you’ll find this indoor housing thread I made useful, it covers correct equipment(lighting, heating, uv), levels, importance of closed chamber for younger growing torts, appropriately maintaining humidity, substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything and a really handy diet link to check out! I’d stop feeding peppers as they are too high in sugar for these guys!

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

This one covers some different closed chamber options

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

This one can also really good to familiarise yourself with, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

I hope they help! I know it’s a lot to take in, so please take all the time you need to read and come back with any further questions

I did check this site for advice and downloaded your information as well as others but lots of stuff to try to digest. Anyway for clarification here is the lamp we use at present-


The temperature immediately below it is 97F during the day. At night-time the temperature in the living room is usually between 60 -70F. that is why we added the heat pad just to ensure it did not fall below 60F.
We did keep the humidity high initially and use a polycarbonate sheet (from greenhouse) to keep in heat and humidity. During the day it leaves a space where the lamp is but goes all the way at night. I thought humidity was more about the shell rather than appetite so I have not persevered with that recently but will step it up again.
The container is 43inches long (including the covered in area) and 24 inches wide. I have an enclosed area with dandelions etc. outside for next summer but obviously too cold just now.
The substrata is Hemp bedding 'recommended for snakes, tortoises or mammals'.
So I can invest in a ceramic lamp and raise humidity again as a starter. Amazon will be my next call. It still dumbfounds me why he is quite happy to eat in the shop but not at home. I don't think our set up is so very different. Any other immediate advice? thank you for all your help so far.

 

[Tom]

It still dumbfounds me why he is quite happy to eat in the shop but not at home. I don't think our set up is so very different. Any other immediate advice? thank you for all your help so far.

This is because the temperatures and lighting are not correct. There is a lot of incorrect care info out in the world. Pet shops are infamous for giving terrible advice and selling the wrong products.

In your climate the only way to control the environmental parameters is to use a large closed chamber. Trying to heat and humidify an open topped enclosure in a cold room is like trying to heat your house in winter with nor roof. It's just physics. It can't work. You need a viv. You also need the correct substrate and the correct lights. It's all explained in these two threads. If you continue doing the way you are doing it, and the way the pet shop says to do it, you will continue to have these problems. We just want to help, and I understand that it is frustrating.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I did check this site for advice and downloaded your information as well as others but lots of stuff to try to digest. Anyway for clarification here is the lamp we use at present-
View attachment 381097

The temperature immediately below it is 97F during the day. At night-time the temperature in the living room is usually between 60 -70F. that is why we added the heat pad just to ensure it did not fall below 60F.
We did keep the humidity high initially and use a polycarbonate sheet (from greenhouse) to keep in heat and humidity. During the day it leaves a space where the lamp is but goes all the way at night. I thought humidity was more about the shell rather than appetite so I have not persevered with that recently but will step it up again.View attachment 381100
The container is 43inches long (including the covered in area) and 24 inches wide. I have an enclosed area with dandelions etc. outside for next summer but obviously too cold just now.
The substrata is Hemp bedding 'recommended for snakes, tortoises or mammals'.
So I can invest in a ceramic lamp and raise humidity again as a starter. Amazon will be my next call. It still dumbfounds me why he is quite happy to eat in the shop but not at home. I don't think our set up is so very different. Any other immediate advice? thank you for all your help so far.

Hopefully toms response helped too but yeah it’s because lighting isn’t correct, if it’s a uv bulb you’re using in that fitting, it’s definitely a compact uv bulb which can be problematic for multiple reasons.

The sheet will help but won’t rectify your humidity issue, it’s impossible to keep where it’s needed outside of a closed chamber set up. Humidity greatly helps babies hydration which is turn help them stay active and eating.

I wouldn’t recommend the hemp bedding either, it’s not appropriate for maintaining the humidity you need.

No problem at all! Happy to stick around and help you with your set up moving forward! You can still use this as a base and get yourself a topper to maintain the humidity and heat, a CHE is going to help too

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Anyway for clarification here is the lamp we use at present-

What bulb do you use in that lamp?

Any other immediate advice?

For immediate advice, I would switch out the bedding you have to coco coir or orchid fir bark. Invest in a good vivarium as soon as you can, it will make it so much easier to maintain the correct temperatures and humidity.

Check out the links others send you, they are packed with good advice.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hello!
If your lamp gives heat and UVB, it's most likely mercury vapour bulb. They have numerous drawbacks and one of the most serious is that heat and UVB output are disproportional: with most lamps you can either achieve correct basking area temperature or safe UVB level. To check this I'll need to know:
1. What lamp do you use (you've posted the picture of the dome but not the lamp installed in it - photo of the bulb box or of the label on the bulb itself should be enough)
2. Exact distance from the lamp to substrate.

Very strong UV can be uncomfortable for the tortoise and affect basking behaviour and overall activity, including appetite.

 

[StuartMonifieth]

What bulb do you use in that lamp?

For immediate advice, I would switch out the bedding you have to coco coir or orchid fir bark. Invest in a good vivarium as soon as you can, it will make it so much easier to maintain the correct temperatures and humidity.

Check out the links others send you, they are packed with good advice.

Hello!
If your lamp gives heat and UVB, it's most likely mercury vapour bulb. They have numerous drawbacks and one of the most serious is that heat and UVB output are disproportional: with most lamps you can either achieve correct basking area temperature or safe UVB level. To check this I'll need to know:
1. What lamp do you use (you've posted the picture of the dome but not the lamp installed in it - photo of the bulb box or of the label on the bulb itself should be enough)
2. Exact distance from the lamp to substrate.

Very strong UV can be uncomfortable for the tortoise and affect basking behaviour and overall activity, including appetite.

12 inches from bulb to substrata. Photo of bulb box should be above but here it is again.

 

[StuartMonifieth]

12 inches from bulb to substrata. Photo of bulb box should be above but here it is again.View attachment 381102

I checked amazon for substrata. Is the Coco Coir advertised for gardens the same as tortoise substrata?

 

[Tom]

12 inches from bulb to substrata. Photo of bulb box should be above but here it is again.View attachment 381102

That box is the fixture, not the bulb. You screw the bulb into that fixture. 12 inches is likely too close for that kind of bulb and it might be hurting his eyes. That type of bulb shouldn't be used over tortoises. Please read the links for the explanation of the correct types of bulbs to use and how to use them.

P.S. Don't use the clamp. Those clamps always fail and it will drop the hot glass bulb into your enclosure. Hang the fixture from over head and remove the clamp.

 

[StuartMonifieth]

Here is a picture of the bulb that we are using.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Here is a picture of the bulb that we are using.

That's the right picture. This lamp should not be used closer than 12" (30cm) to the animal. At the same time, at greater distances UV output is less than recommended.

What would I do now:
1. Raise the lamp to 35-40cm above substrate. This is to check if harsh UV light affects tortoise.
2. Order a flood incandescent lamp (provides heat and some visible light but no UV) to replace your all-in-one lamp. Arcadia Solar Basking Floodlight, 75W or ProRep Flood Spot, 100W (available from SwellReptile online shop). They are relatively inexpensive. This is to provide correct basking area heating.
3. Order a T5 UVB lamp like Arcadia ProT5 Desert 12%, 24W or Reptile Systems Fergusson Zone 3. Upfront costs are high but such lamps don't need to be replaced every 6 months (Arcadia can last up to 3-4 years when is used on 4 hour timer).

 

[StuartMonifieth]

That's the right picture. This lamp should not be used closer than 12" (30cm) to the animal. At the same time, at greater distances UV output is less than recommended.

What would I do now:
1. Raise the lamp to 35-40cm above substrate. This is to check if harsh UV light affects tortoise.
2. Order a flood incandescent lamp (provides heat and some visible light but no UV) to replace your all-in-one lamp. Arcadia Solar Basking Floodlight, 75W or ProRep Flood Spot, 100W (available from SwellReptile online shop). They are relatively inexpensive. This is to provide correct basking area heating.
3. Order a T5 UVB lamp like Arcadia ProT5 Desert 12%, 24W or Reptile Systems Fergusson Zone 3. Upfront costs are high but such lamps don't need to be replaced every 6 months (Arcadia can last up to 3-4 years when is used on 4 hour timer).

Do I still need a ceramic heat lamp for night time? What kind?

 

[Tom]

Do I still need a ceramic heat lamp for night time? What kind?

That depends on the over night low temperature where the enclosure sits. Some people keep their homes warm enough that it isn't needed. If your house gets too cold over night, then some night heat will help. For a 19 month old hermanni, I'd try to keep the night time low around 20-21C. No lower than 16C though unless you are trying to induce brumation.

I like the ZooMed brand if you can get that over there. Zilla or Arcadia are good too.

 

[StuartMonifieth]

That depends on the over night low temperature where the enclosure sits. Some people keep their homes warm enough that it isn't needed. If your house gets too cold over night, then some night heat will help. For a 19 month old hermanni, I'd try to keep the night time low around 20-21C. No lower than 16C though unless you are trying to induce brumation.

I like the ZooMed brand if you can get that over there. Zilla or Arcadia are good too.

Arcadia Reptile Ceramic Heater Infrared Lamp 50 Watt. Would this be big enough?​

 

[Tom]

Arcadia Reptile Ceramic Heater Infrared Lamp 50 Watt. Would this be big enough?​

Only your thermometer can answer this. The link says 50 watt, but the picture in the link says 100 watt. In your cold climate, I would do 150 watts to start with. You will run it on a thermostat, so it will not overheat anything if 150 watts is more than you need. I don't think 50 watts will do much.

If you acquire a closed chamber, you can use much lower wattage bulbs since the heat is contained inside the enclosure.

 

[StuartMonifieth]

Only your thermometer can answer this. The link says 50 watt, but the picture in the link says 100 watt. In your cold climate, I would do 150 watts to start with. You will run it on a thermostat, so it will not overheat anything if 150 watts is more than you need. I don't think 50 watts will do much.

If you acquire a closed chamber, you can use much lower wattage bulbs since the heat is contained inside the enclosure.

Ok I cannot find a 150W Arcadia heater lamp but other makes are available. That gets us on to the thermostat - example to look for please?