Sulcata wont eat

[mom03]

Ok so I am going to be completly honest... I have been the most attentive to my little guy lately.... It has been a rough beginning of the year... but now I am concerned. I have been noticing that he really isnt eating. I started doing some research on the web and have become more concerned. My sulcata has got to be ATLEAST 5 years old and is no more than 6 inches long and MAYBE a pound- two pounds. From what I have been reading.. he should be much bigger!?! I keep him inside because I live in colorado and Just got into a house that we can actually build an outside enclosure... but it is snowing and definitly not close to being warm enough to build something, let alone him live out there... My hubby seems to think that he will only grow as large as his enclosure allows... but that is not what I have been reading... I went to the store today and bough him all new food and substrate hoping that would pick him up but it doesnt seem to be doing the trick. I soaked hm and he kept putting his head all the way under that water... it made me nervous so i took him out. When he is walking he is just kinda dragging himself along and not really picking him self up... What should I do?

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By the way, I believe that I was given lots of misinformation along the way... I was told to put him in alfalfa pelets to help with odor and that it helps to build his leg muscles, so that is what he has been in... but tonight at the pet store the lady told me that a good thing to use is calci-sand... so i bought that and that is what he is currently using for his substrate.. but now I am reading that neither of those are good to use... any thoughts??? Also he has a basking lamp 100 watts and full spectra lighting lamp. Then he has 3 dishes in his cage.. normally just 2 but I am desperate to get him to eat. one with reptomin soft gel fruit and veggie diet, one with water, and the last one with grassland tortoise food. he is moving around a little. but not pacing around the cage like he normally would. His eyes are open and he seems alert... I have heard about trying to force feed untill they start eating on their own. I have a feeling he is dehydrated and probably weak from not eating much.... im so so worried and just sitting on the couch watching his cage... waiting for him to start moving towardhis food dish....

 

[miss_kristyn]

WELCOME!

You need to get him some cypress mulch (buy it at lowes 2.80 a bag) calci sand is not good by itself can cause problems.. do soak him with warm water (mine dives his head under water for not even more than a second probably to wash off)... watch the humidity levels in his cage too... give him some romaine lettuce not that pet store stuff and also I just found out about this food MAZURI, which is suppose to be the best thing for your tort!! (spikethebest sells it very cheap)... this is just VERY basic information there are more people on here that will give you a lot more information!

SPIKE THE BEST MAZURI FOOD POSTING!
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-11568.html?highlight=MAZURI

Dont feel bad there is A LOT of misleading information... though on this forum you will receive GOOD and TRUE facts about what to do for your little dude!!!

***Also post some pictures of your tortoise and his enclosure and that will give everyone a way better idea of what needs to be done****

 

[mom03]

OK Thank you. I will put up some pictures now.. I had been feeding him the spring mix of veggies that you buy at the grocery store. In the summer, I had a rose bush and hibiscus that I was feeding him from... but like I said... the last 2 weeks or so.. it hasnt had much to eat...

 

[miss_kristyn]

I am reading old post and copying and pasting what I am finding....

Bermuda hay and Timothy Hay always available, lots of weeds(I'll cover those species in another post), fresh grass clippings (or just fresh grass, when it grows wild), spineless opuntia, occasional organ pipe cactus (with the spines cut off), fresh mulberry tree leaves, "occasional" rose petals

No cucumber or veggies like that. 80% should be grasses and weeds grape leafs

*Regularly:
Dark Leafy Greens such as: Endive, Watercress,Collard Greens, Kale, Dandelion, Chicory, Escarole, Radicchio, Turnip Greens, Opuntia (smooth or despined)
*Occasionally:
Cabbage, Carrots, Carrot Tops, Red Leaf Lettuce, Romaine, Mustard Greens, Alfalfa Hay, Parsley
* Rarely:
Swiss Chard, Spinach, Broccoli, Bok choy, Iceberg lettuce, Sweet Potatoes, Sprouts of any kind, Corn, Cucumbers, Beet Greens, Fruit in general.
*Never: Rhubarb, Beans of any kind, dog food, pasta

here is the best website that I have found and also what everyone says to look at...
http://africantortoise.com/general_care.htm

Also keep water dish away from heat... make sure your tort can hide and has a cool spot in his cage.... make sure you get a UVB bulb and I believe you have to exchange them out every 6-8 months? (pet stores have these, they are not cheap!) Also I am seeing that mercury vapor bulbs are the way to go with lighting, but I am not experienced with those. I see 160 watt is what some people are recommending???

I will keep posting with whatever I find to help you out!

 

[mom03]

it wont let me put up any pictures, it says that they are too large...

 

[miss_kristyn]

I sent you an private message... check your inbox on this site

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HERE IS mom03 SULCATA!

I have to say he is a beautiful little guy!​

 

[mom03]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR PUTTING THOSE PICS UP FOR ME!!!! I just checked on him and his eyes are glossy around them like they are watering... I just put in a new heat lamp... could it be too hot???

 

[miss_kristyn]

Do you have thermometer in there? What type of light is it?

TEMPERATURES IN THEIR HOUSING:
Tortoises require a range of temperatures to be provided for proper thermo regulation. 75ish on the cool side with a bright basking area in the low 90'sis about as close to ideal as you can probably get. Be sure to verify the temps with thermometers on both sides at tort level. As in nature, tortoises require an overnight drop in temps to maintain a healthy immune system. I don't let mine get cooler then 65. Sick or newly acquired animals may be best kept in the 80's overnight to aid in their immune response and combat the stress of adjusting to a new home. Heating pads and hot rocks can be dangerous and shouldn't be relied on as a heat source. Never use a heating pad near heat lamp or other heat sources. In nature overhead heat is absorbed more effectively. Overheating is a danger esp. in smaller quarters when they need the ability to move about to manage their body heat.

Eye : Runny eyes, dry eyes, eyes chesses and eyes can't open are common symptom on eye problems. Clean the eyes with vitamin A & D oil capsule. If the temperature is too hot, tortoise cries to keep the eyes wet.

So my guess is it is too hot from reading that.... You have a clamp light try moving it away from the cage. By the way aquariums are not good for tortoise. Tomorrow go buy a rubbermaid box they make huge ones they cost like 15 dollars. If you look on enclosures they have a bunch of cheap ways of making some pretty cool tortoise homes!

**Fish tanks, (especially the ones with tall sides) are unsuitable long term because they tend to lack ventilation and overheat easily.**
ALSO... sometimes tortoise get stressed out from not being able to hide from you fully...

 

[mom03]

Ok I am going to try to clamp it on the very top of the cage instead of it sitting on the edge of it and see if that helps... Other wise.. does he look to small for being over 5 yrs? I put him next to a hershey kiss to have measure of how little he really is...

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OOOPSSS yeah I guess the new bulb really made a difference... the temp gauge wasnt even measuring because it was too hot... I moved the lamp away and it has started going down... it is down to 105 right now.. I am going to wait to see if it keeps dropping and move it further if needed..

 

[miss_kristyn]

Ok I am going to try to clamp it on the very top of the cage instead of it sitting on the edge of it and see if that helps... Other wise.. does he look to small for being over 5 yrs? I put him next to a hershey kiss to have measure of how little he really is...

To be very honest I dont know.... Mine is somewhere between a year and two years... the woman I rescued her from had no idea and gave me some crazy age that was totally wrong!

Have you owned this tortoise for 5 years? I say he is pretty small... can you go on ahead and measure him from the front of the shell to the back and then measure his belly plate. Also, would you happen to have a weight on him.

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Ok I am going to try to clamp it on the very top of the cage instead of it sitting on the edge of it and see if that helps... Other wise.. does he look to small for being over 5 yrs? I put him next to a hershey kiss to have measure of how little he really is...

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OOOPSSS yeah I guess the new bulb really made a difference... the temp gauge wasnt even measuring because it was too hot... I moved the lamp away and it has started going down... it is down to 105 right now.. I am going to wait to see if it keeps dropping and move it further if needed..

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oh wow yeah! You probably need to take him out of his cage and let that thing air out and let him cool off!!... also in about 15 minutes soak him in warmish water so he can drink... Glad you caught that!! Poor little dude

 

[Tom]

This sounds like some long term improper husbandry technique. I don't say this to make you feel bad, but to help find what's lacking in your set-up or routine. It could be any number of things; improper temps or diet, lack of UV or calcium. I don't know how to post links, but I was recently referred to "africantortoise.com". Its a great site, with lots of good info. Spend some time there and see if you don't discover the problem on your own.

Also, give us more details about your set-up. Size, temps, normal food you offer, supplement routine, etc... How cold is your house this time of year? What type of 100 watt bulb are you using, spotlight, flood light or regular household bulb? A regular bulb in a reflector housing probably isn't going to get it done in CO in the middle of winter. Whats the temp in your basking spot, directly under the bulb?

Ordinarily I'd recommend warm water soaks twice daily and sunshine as much as possible. Since you can only do half of that, we need a good indoor UV source. Try to find one of the relatively new mercury vapor lamps. These are marketed under a number of different names and brands, but they are all either 100 watt spots or 160 watt floodlights. I recommend the 160 flood. These bulbs are relatively expensive, but totally worth it if you can't get direct sunshine. Use a temperature probe to insure a proper basking spot on one side of the cage. I like a basking spot to be close to 120 degrees, but most people will suggest 100. Raise or lower the bulb to get the right temp. I've found these bulbs to be the next best thing to sunshine. I was able to stop and reverse MBD in the middle of winter with one of these. I have never been satisfied with any of the flourescent tube types, despite what the manufacturers and people selling them say.

Also, try warming up the overall temps in the whole cage or room. This often helps a lethargic reptile. You didn't tell us what your normal temps are, but even if they are high enough, sometimes a little extra just does the trick.

To induce feeding try offering bits of red, yellow or orange stuff. I like hibiscus, dandelion flowers or rose petals for this purpose. If you can't find those, try some red or yellow bell peppers. You don't want to feed him too much of that stuff all the time, but a little now and then is fine. The bottom line, however, is if you fix the husbandry issue, the appetite should come back on its own. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[miss_kristyn]

Okay here is a posting I found of a 4 year old sulcata

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-10713.html?highlight=4+year+old+sulcata

 

[Stephanie Logan]

How long have you had your tortoise (and does he have a name?)?

Where did you get him and what did they tell you about his age when you bought him? I am not a Sulcata keeper, but he looks very young to me, or else his growth has been seriously stunted.

Here are a couple of threads in the Sulcata Central section that may help:

http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-11450.html
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-11522.html

Please browse the Enclosure section and the Food and Diet section as well. Like Kris said, let us know as many details as possible about this little guy's history and how you are currently keeping him (I know you will be advised to get a lamp stand for your heat light--and don't use a coil bulb!!!!--so you can keep it at least 12 inches from sully's shell). There are many Sulcata keepers on this forum who can help you, and will hopefully be posting here soon!

In the meantime, make an appointment with a vet who deals with tortoises so you can take yours in if necessary.

Good luck and welcome to the forum!

Here

 

[mom03]

Ok so here is the run down. I bought him in California at a ranch pet/feed store. They told me that they were just hatched and that I didnt need to give them water bc they get the water from the food they eat, they then gave me the orange tortoise bits to feed him and told me that would be good enough. After a little research I learned that it is not enough and that they needed to eat greens, grass, veggis. So I started feeding him spring veggie mix from the store and little bits of friut now and then. He has been kept in the same cage that I bought him in.. they told me that he would outgrow it in less than 2 years..... I bought him when I was pregnant with my now 5 year old. So I know that he is atleast 5. The pet store had told me to put him in alfalfa pelets to help his leg muscles and that it would absorb urine and odor. at one point I had pebbles in the cage, but he tried to eat ine so i took them out and replaced it with some sort of top soil... Then went back to the alfalfa for about the last year. Tonight I put him in calci sand. The uv lamp is a lamp i bought from a pet store as they told me to go full spectrum. The heat lampI just bought tonight that is a repti bulb (something like that) that is 100 watts. This last summer I had a rose bush and bough a hibiscus that I planted.. as it bloomed I would take the flowers and pedals from the rose bush, as well as the leaves from the hibiscus to feed him, also fed him clovers and dandilion greens some grass clippings. But now it is winter, all the grass is dead so I went back to spring veggie mix till today when i went with what I listed in the first post. There are some questions on his enclosure. Should I be changing to a rubbermaid container... I would feel bad for him being in there and not being able to see out.... plus I would have to find a place to put that where my 2 year old could get to it... He absolutly loves the "tutle". I do not know if it is a boy or a girl. Someone told me that it is most likely a boy bc he doesnt have any dip in the bottm of his shell and there was something else.. so we went with that it was boy and my husband named him Cletis. The normal temp that we keep the cage is about 80s since I put the new bulb in the temp has 3 quares lit.. 85 95 100 and that is at the higher half of the tank. Our house never gets below 75 as we have kids that must stay warm also! I am not sure what the size if the tank is.. I would say maybe 30 gallons? 3ft side to side 1 1/2 ft front to back.

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Ok something new.... I put him in his water to soak... usually when I do that he will "pee" and the white chalky stuff comes out... but tonight he didnt do that so I picked him up and "tickled" his foot (that usually with trigger him to pee or poop whenever he is handled) and he peed but it was a very dark brown... like coffee... sounds like some real dehydration to me.. unless someone has any other input. either way, I cleaned the water and put him back in to soak a little more and hope that he drinks.

 

[Tom]

Bigger enclosures are always better. Go big. Real big. Build or buy a stand for it to raise it out of reach of your children. Not being able to see out will likely reduce stress. Tortoises don't understand glass. In the wild, if they can see through something, they can usually just bulldoze their way through it. Thats why you can't use chain link fencing for them outside. They will rub themselves raw, constantly trying to push through it. When you build your outdoor pen out side, be sure to use something that is also a visual barrier. Same thing applies indoors.

75 is warm enough for the cool side, but you really need a remote temperature probe of some sort to check temps all over the enclosure. They sell infrared, push button handheld types or go to a hardware store and get one of those small digital thermometers with a remote probe. At Lowes they have one with a wireless remote probe for about $25. The remote, wireless probe is a little plastic box, about 2"x3" that you can set anywhere within 100 feet of the Base and it will tell you the temp and humidity where the box is. You can set the box anywhere in your enclosure and there are no wires to worry about and your tort can't eat it.

Have you had him outside in the sun much? Do you give him calcium supplementation? Does your calcium supplement have D3 in it? Your substrate is not your immediate problem. It is sounding to me more like the onset of MBD or possibly an intestinal impaction. If he's been fine for all those years with this routine and now you suddenly have lethargy and lack of appetite, I'd guess one of those two. The dragging himself is a clue to me. I rehabbed an Iguana with these symptoms. She didn't show much interest in food and her back end just didn't work very well. She sort of dragged herself around. Does he ever twitch or seem to have a nervous tick? How long ago did he eat that gravel and how much? X-rays at the vet could eliminate or confirm this as a possible cause of your problem.

BTW, the "grow to the size of the enclosure" is an old wives tale and not accurate for any species of animal. The size of the walls surrounding them has nothing to do with how big they are genetically programed to get. Also, tortoises cannot drink unless they submerge their nostrils and their mouth (so, most of their head). Sounds like your boy is thirsty.

 

[dmmj]

I am always amazed at some of the info a "feed" store will give for tortoise care, wow. I commend you for doing research to find out his/her needs. I also like the hershey kiss for size reference, good idea. The info given is spot on the only thing I can think of is temps most likely since it is snowing he/she may just be reacting to the outside temps even if you keep him warm enough. A vet visit may be advised just to get a general check up IMHO and a glass aquarium is not the best home for a sulc, I would go with a rubbermid or cement mixing tub from a HI store. I am hoping it is just a season mood thingy for your litte tort and I welcome you to the forum. I hope this has helped some.

 

[mom03]

Ok so I have not really been supplementing with calcium. I bought this powder called tortoise supplement salad topper and I would sprinkle some of that on the hibiscus/rose pedals/lettuce when I gave it to him. That does have calcium and D3 in it along with protein and things like that.... If there is a way to reverse MBD if I start on a calcium rich feeding now? What do I need to do for force feeding? I soaked him a little this morning and will again when I get home from work. Can someone please give me some advise on force feeding as my next day off to take him to the vet wont be till thursday??! I dont want him to get worse in the mean time. If I can try to get his appetite back for him now. I will also head to walmart or hi store for a new "cage" Do I need to worry about the heat lamp melting the sides?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

He does not need force feeding. He needs more humidity, that means get cypress mulch and dampen it, get Spring Mix from the produce section of the grocery store. Just regular Spring Mix, he does not recognize commercially pelleted food product as food so get the Spring Mix, and warm him up. He needs to be 80 degrees or more to be able to metabolize his food. Get his basking spot to 95 degrees even if that means you just use a regular incandescent bulb for right now. I am trying to simplify the whole thing for you. Warm him up, better substrate and Spring Mix, then after he starts eating we'll talk about the rest of your husbandry...also they drink with their whole heads under water so that is normal. I agree with Roachman, it sounds like the start of MBD

 

[Tom]

Maggie is right. Don't try to force feed him. They can go a long time with no food at all, and be fine. Unless he has some sort of genetic, un-fixable defect, all you should need to do is correct what ever is wrong with the environment and he'll start to get better. Those bulbs that I told you about(the 160 watt flood, mercury vapor) work like magic to make a tortoise feel and get better. The only thing better is real sunshine. Speaking of which...

If you can get him to Southern California, I'd be happy to try to fix him up for you. We are having a very mild winter with daytime temps in the mid- to high 70's. All of my reptiles have been getting lots of sunshine. My reptile room has the right temps too. If you drive him here yourself, you are welcome to come to my ranch and see all of my set-ups. Maybe that will help you discover whatever is less then perfect about yours. (Wait, that sounded wrong. I don't mean that mine are perfect...) I know this is completely impractical, but I really mean it. I'm happy to help.

 

[mom03]

Lol thank you. We have moved to Colorado since I got him and that is a 20 hr drive. But I have a couple of questions.... I am almost absolutely positive he has the MBD by all the signs that show. Shell too small, beak long, not moving, poor diet, I feel so bad. So I researched on how to treat and it advised starting with a children's dose of liquid calcium supplement as well as changing the diet and making sure he is warm enough. I was wondering of any advise on that to help strengthen him to move around and eat more. My husband is staying home with the kids for the time being so cletis has 24 hour care. I know that this didn't happen overnight and that it won't be better over night nut It kills me to see him so sad and weak and know that I could have totally prevented this with more research from yhe start. I want to thank everyone for all the support and advise! You have been great!