temporary enclosure for Zeus and Thor.

[Jacqui]

You will find your enclosure will be a constant stage of evolving as you go and as you learn what works and doesn't work. We harp on size a lot because most folks think that because tortoises are small, they can make do in small spaces. Actually they do quite a bit of roaming and need as large of a space as possible. Those folks with small areas do well to think about creating another level to their enclosure thus adding more tortoise floor space, but not using up more of the house's space.

 

[wellington]

You are not being judged, the habitat is. People don't always have the time to couch diplomatic replies. You asked for thoughts. You got a terse list. I'm sure no offense was meant. Good information is good information, no matter the source or delicacy of delivery.

People with space shortages build double decker habitats, stack habitats, or rehome tortoises. Some keep them together in inadequate housing and one gets bullied to death. These are all logical possibilities.

Sorry if this is gruff, I'm in a time bind myself

Thank you

 

[Jacqui]

If bullying does happen then I will separate them but at the minute they seem happy. The smaller one follows the larger one around and they sleep in the same hide, even when I separate them and put them in different hides. They always end up at the same spot. But it's a possibility isn't it?

Sounds like a great plan! You may be lucky and be able to leave them together. The small one may be a male and thus following the larger female around... just a thought.

 

[spanna]

I've taken everyone's opinions on board...I moved the hey, changed the water bowl and water bowl. There not even 12 month old, so I don't think bullying is happening yet but like I've said on a number of times if it does happens, I will separate them

 

[johnsonnboswell]

They end up in the same spot because that's the most desirable spot, not because they are companionable. It is good that one isn't avoiding the other.

Make sure the smaller gets access to food. Don't assume it's not hungry.

It's so easy to mistake the signs of stress and attribute it to other factors. I'm not saying yours is bullied, but we've seen it so often that we don't advise people to wait. By the time the signs are clear, it will have been ongoing and stressful for a long time. Sometimes the bullied smaller one does not survive.

This subject comes up often. Even in a larger group there can be bullying.

 

[spanna]

The smaller one is a male cause his tail long and the other is a female as it's tail is short and stumpy and her belly is flat

 

[spanna]

The smaller one doesn't stop eating, walks around, bathes in the water and then basks. I don't think bullying is happening...

 

[wellington]

Do you all live in mansions?

You don't need a mansion to house a tortoise in a proper and large enclosure. There are ways, but you have to do your research and get creative sometimes.
Also remember, we are here to help you, but even more to help each tortoise be house and fed properly.
A tortoise going from one bad situation to another is not what most people here are looking for.

 

[johnsonnboswell]

They may be fine together until sexual maturity. I had two rescues together for a while, until he recovered enough (he'd been starved) to remember how to make whoopie. Two sexually mature RTs together becomes a nightmare for the female. At that point people either get more females or separate the two.

 

[Jacqui]

There not even 12 month old,

Sounds like your making progress! Now I am curious, who told you they were under 12 months old?

 

[spanna]

It's hear say...the lady I got Zeus off said he was 7 month old when I got him and the other one I rescued and I asked how she was for hibernation. She told me she was 12 month old. But there's no way of knowing there exact age and their smaller than my hand

 

[ditzyangeluk]

Thank you...I want advise not judged by people. I live in the uk in a 3 bedroomed house. I did mention it was temporary till the new enclosure arrives. I previously had 2ft vivarium and just ordered a 4ft. That's the biggest I can have. I've recently saved another tortoise cause the previous owner were feeding it lemon, ice berg lettuce...no heat or UVB light and no water. I'm just trying to do what's best for them...

Do your best, your way. The thing I realised when I first got my torts was that I had OVER-FORUMED and there is so much conflicting information out there. Glean what you can, do your best and that is all anyone can ask

 

[tglazie]

Forgive the saltiness of some of our more experienced members. You must understand, many of us have kept tortoises for decades. Those of us in that category have seen many tortoises perish and suffer in conditions that were inadequate, which inspires a degree of impatience when one sees this again and again. No one is disputing that you are doing your best.

Now, given the limitations you have on space, I would recommend only keeping one Russian. I understand that you saved that one tortoise from someone who was feeding it garbage, but given your limitations in space, I would say your good intentions must unfortunately be limited by your three bedroom apartment. When I was a young fellow and not a regular aged fellow, I went through a phase one year where I wanted to save every tortoise I saw. I would never turn away an adoption, I would buy any sad looking tortoise in my friend Matt's store and at the local PetCo (my father didn't help in this regard; he had a bad childhood, and he enjoyed indulging me at the expense of more important matters, like managing credit card debt), regardless of how big it would eventually get. This led to an overabundance of male tortoises of different species. Soon enough, I barely had enough space for all the tortoises. I couldn't grow enough food, so I had to grow it all in a series of friend's gardens, plus over the winter, I was entirely reliant upon supermarket greens, and I was buying Romaine by the case. Back in '97, I ended up spending all of my spare time finding tortoise food and managing a zoo of 1 sulcata, 3 redfoots, 5 marginateds, 3 greeks, 6 russians, 1 hingeback, and 3 southern paints in a big pond. I had way too many animals for what was increasingly a more and more limited space. Plus, the backyard turned into a moonscape, a rain soaked mud wallow. Now, yes, my example is extreme, and though I don't live in a mansion, I am an American from Texas with a nice little chunk of land with a modest house that rests upon it. I have the advantage of long warm summers and short, cool winters. All of these are advantages you do not have simply as a result of your geographical location and economic status. This isn't judgement. This is just something we all must accept, namely, our current limitations and what's best for these animals we all love so dearly. Who knows, maybe your career will one day blossom into something lucrative, and you can afford yourself a nice little house in the country with a big greenhouse in which to house your menagerie. But until then, one must work with what one has.

Surely there is someone you know or someone to whom you may turn that can take one of these tortoises off your hands. I know we have several UK members, and despite the fact that some of us may be a bit harsh at times, I do sincerely believe that tortoiseforum is, at it's core, about building a community where we can all come together and express honestly what we have all come to understand about these awesome shelled beasts given our time keeping them, that we might honestly confront what is best for the animals in question and be true to ourselves in exploring what it is that we are capable of delivering toward that end. I think that made sense. Before I joined this forum, I always felt that tortoise keeping was a hobby enjoyed only by a small few. We were always the guys huddled in the small circle away from all the snake people at the STHS, the guys who were a little introverted and always getting pressured by the club president into getting a corn snake or California King. But I get on here, and there's none of that. There are just answers, precious answers to questions I've always had but found no way of...answering.

But also, keep in mind that I'm not saying, "you can have only one tortoise, now get rid of that other one forever, and choose quickly." No, it isn't like that at all. It's like these guys are saying. Habitat construction is a constant process. I mean, when I first started out with my Greek tortoise Graecus, I had him running around in a two by six chicken wire run tethered to the ground with stakes in a big parabola, at the base of which I attached the plastic playhouse I used as a child. I think I was ten when I first got this guy, and I'm over thirty now. Now, this enclosure sucked, and Graecus ended up tearing out two of his front toes on this thing trying to walk through the chicken wire. I screwed up, and Graecus paid for it. He escaped five times from this thing when my family and I were living in Alamogordo, NM. Five times. When I was a kid, I was an idiot, and it is a good thing that I didn't get a sulcata until I reached my teenage years, when Graecus took a backseat to my insane and unsustainable tortoise grab.

I must admit, I'm meandering a little more than usual on this post, but I'm trying to get back to the same theme here, which is that yeah, Wellington may have been a little salty in saying your enclosure was lacking, but there's no need for hurt feelings. Take it as a challenge. Say something to the effect of, "Oh yeah, Wellington, I'm going to make this thing bigger and badder, and I'm going to take pictures of it, and you'll have nothing but good things to say at that point, at which point I won't even have to tell anyone about how I 'showed you.'" But yeah, when I first started keeping Graecus, I came across a little book called "Keeping Mediterranean Tortoises" by Brian Pursall, this Brit who was all snooty about the proper way to keep tortoises. I still have it. And in that book, he outlined that wild plants should form the majority of a tortoise's diet. Now me, I was feeding mine supermarket greens at the time. Graecus, for the first year he was with me, was eating lettuce and collards and endive and that's about it. When I first read this, I was mad. I didn't want to hear it. I felt like every word I read in that book was judging the way I was taking care of Graecus, and how dare they do such a thing. But despite the rest of the clap trap in that book, that part is actually right, and when I changed things around, Graecus benefitted. So yeah, man, don't take this personally. Come on here with a focus on the well being of the tortoise. And don't be afraid to question people on their wisdom. I'm a big proponent of solitary tortoise keeping, and anyone who says otherwise knows that I'm more than ready to challenge them on the subject based upon my particular experiences.

But don't disparage the invaluable (and granted, sometimes conflicting) advice offered on this forum. Many of the people on here, Wellington included (Wellington especially) know what they're talking about. Even though Wellington stinks at identifying the different forms of Testudo graeca, but hey, everybody stinks at that, except for Chris and Gary, and I don't know what those guys are seeing that I'm not. I mean, the mish mosh of forms that comprise graeca is the most confusing thing I've encountered in the animal kingdom. For the longest time, Highfield and all those old school goofs kept telling prospective breeders to "match pairs on the basis of shared physical traits," but I'm here, looking at the imports and captive hatched graeca, every one of 'em with that ever so confusing word "Greek" on 'em, and I'm thinking, "what shared physical traits? No two tortoises look anything alike! How many traits must be shared? 'Cause I see more difference than I do similarity." I mean, maybe classifying ever evolving viruses is harder, but shoot, graeca are definitely up there as far as difficulty goes, right up there with the various forms of non-forest dwelling hingebacks or all the different forms of leopards or the huge variation that exists among red foots. Man, that stuff is confusing, but those darned graeca, I think, take the cake. That's why I like the marginata. Simple. Aside from that mini Wessinger's tort, that is one solid little species on the Peloponnese, which is awesome because it rhymes.

T.G.

 

[spanna]

I live in a house with a large garden at the front and one at the rear. I can house 2 tortoises and have the space for 2 and the money for them. I just disagree how people on here expect everyone to be the same as themselves...that's my opinion.
I totally understand and will seriously think about adopting the other tortoise, I will be gutted to let her go because Zeus follows her everywhere. I see loads of people, who have two including my mum but she got them at the same time from the breeder and they seem fine. I've asked loads of people including breeders if two can be put together and they've said yes. I really want two but need to do what's best for her. Id seen Thor and seen she wasn't been looked after and thought she needs a better home. She had no food, water, no UVB light or heat, shredded paper as a substrate and they were feeding her lemon...I couldn't believe my eyes! I get the new enclosure on Friday which is 4ft and was hoping they'd both be fine in that but will consider rehoming Thor. I will defiantly get that book!

 

[leigti]

Just a suggestion, for now put The bigger tortoise in the bigger enclosure and the smaller one in the smaller enclosure. It will cost a little more but it will give you time to decide what you want to do long term. I have had my Russian tortoise for almost 2 years now, and I am now in the process of building the third indoor enclosure. I also have a box turtle that was a rescue so my two little critters can't live together either. I have upgraded the outdoor one also. It is a never ending process two-story enclosures are a good idea for a small space also. I live in a two bedroom 650 square-foot house so I know what it means to be in a small place. I did a lot of research before I found this forum and after, and I realize now that it is the best place to get information. And sometimes the information is conflicting but keep researching and you will decide what works for you. There are many ways to do things the right way. Please don't be offended by what people say, they do mean well. Very good looking little Russians!

 

[spanna]

When the new enclosure arrives, I think I'll be separating them. Like you said, one in the larger enclosure and the other in the smaller one and see how that goes. I want to give her a chance but time will tell, if it doesn't work then I will have to put her up for adoption. I feel like a bad mum, I thought I was doing the right thing.

 

[leigti]

You are doing the right thing. You have time to figure out if you will be able to provide two enclosures that are large enough, or if you must put one up for adoption. But until then you will give them both a good Home for now. Take some time to research different types of enclosures, possibly a double or even triple Decker there are people from all over the world on this forum so you will be able to find somebody to adopt one if you need to. Keep us posted and what you decide to do. And take a good look at the enclosures and the Russian tortoise sections of the forum for specific ideas. There is also a section for adoptions if that is your choice.

 

[spanna]

Thank you, you've been very helpful. I've been looking for a double decker table but don't know where I can get one from or where to order one as I am really bad at DIY lol

 

[leigti]

I think you will have to make one. Maybe you can find someone to make one for you after you find some pictures of them on the forum here. There might be some other pictures on the Internet also. And the difference between a double-decker and a triple-decker is really only one more layer , Heck go for four you can also try and L-shaped enclosure in the corner of a room with lots of storage space underneath it. I didn't know what I would do when my vet offered me a rescue box turtle, I already had a Russian and I knew they couldn't go together. But I made it work and I'm glad I did. But if you can't don't feel bad just do what you can until you can find a new home for one if you have to. Don't feel guilty.

 

[Smile]

When the new enclosure arrives, I think I'll be separating them. Like you said, one in the larger enclosure and the other in the smaller one and see how that goes. I want to give her a chance but time will tell, if it doesn't work then I will have to put her up for adoption. I feel like a bad mum, I thought I was doing the right thing.

Don't feel that way... as long as you care about your animals, then you're a good owner. People just over-exaggerate over enclosure size sometimes...