The Tortoise Table

[TC10]

Just a quick question about diet

[Background info- I have 2 sulcatas that I rescued from a Craigslist seller who clearly did not give them the right enclosure and diet. (They came as a packaged pair. I did not originally intend to get two. I am well aware that I need to prepare to separate them as they get older and/or if there are any signs of bullying.)
I’ve had them for 2 years now and their pyramiding is drastically better. They are still small, a few lbs each. I’m trying to add more variety to their diet (they usually get a mixture of ZooMed Grasslands pellets, Mazuri LS pellets, and Timothy Hay).]

Question: Is The Tortoise Table a little more restrictive than is always necessary?

I’m only asking because it directly contradicts my exotics vet’s recommendation sometimes- usually in regards to things that are okay in moderation or rarely as a treat (like broccoli, spinach, bell peppers, etc.) I have given them these foods as treats before and they were fine. However, I don’t want to continue something that might be harmful, even as a rare occurrence.

Should I rely more on my exotic vet’s recommendations or should I stick rigorously to The Tortoise Table?

I’m thankful for any advice from more experienced keepers than me.

 

[Markw84]

Hello, and welcome to the forum.

You have a good question, and unfortunately, there just has not been enough research on plant toxicity as it applies to tortoises. Most all the good information available is in reference to studies of livestock and other mammals. We are finding, tortoises are very different and have very different digestive systems that are not affected by many substances plants create to protect themselves from grazing animals. A good example is the raphides many plants carry has been found to be totally innocuous to tortoises. Pothos is a great enclosure plant and tortoises love to eat what they can reach. The elephant ear also listed as do not feed on tortoise table is actually the main food used to raise Galapagos tortoises in the centers on the Galapagos islands.

Lacking any other trusted information, the tortoise table is a great place to start. I simply keep in mind it uses as it's creiteria absolutely any report of any reaction to any animal in deciding if it is a possible problem. That does not mean it is therefore a known problem for tortoises. However, with so many good, safe choices with totally "clean bills of healthy" to err on the side of caution is best without trusted contrary knowledge on a plant.

 

[Tom]

Just a quick question about diet

[Background info- I have 2 sulcatas that I rescued from a Craigslist seller who clearly did not give them the right enclosure and diet. (They came as a packaged pair. I did not originally intend to get two. I am well aware that I need to prepare to separate them as they get older and/or if there are any signs of bullying.)
I’ve had them for 2 years now and their pyramiding is drastically better. They are still small, a few lbs each. I’m trying to add more variety to their diet (they usually get a mixture of ZooMed Grasslands pellets, Mazuri LS pellets, and Timothy Hay).]

Question: Is The Tortoise Table a little more restrictive than is always necessary?

I’m only asking because it directly contradicts my exotics vet’s recommendation sometimes- usually in regards to things that are okay in moderation or rarely as a treat (like broccoli, spinach, bell peppers, etc.) I have given them these foods as treats before and they were fine. However, I don’t want to continue something that might be harmful, even as a rare occurrence.

Should I rely more on my exotic vet’s recommendations or should I stick rigorously to The Tortoise Table?

I’m thankful for any advice from more experienced keepers than me.

The three items you mentioned are all fine for once in a while feedings.

Your diet needs much more variety, and more greens and leaves. Orchard grass hay or Bermuda hay work much better than Timothy for starters, but how about mulberry leaves, grape vine leaves, spineless opuntia pads, rose of sharon leaves and flowers, squash or pumpkin leaves and flowers, real grass, endive, escarole, mallow, dandelions, sow thistle, broadleaf or narrow leaf plantain, filaree, kudzu leaves, and soooooo many others. Here is a food list:

For Those Who Have a Young Sulcata...

Over and over I type up and answer diet questions and try to get people feeding the right stuff, but I find that the "norm" is grocery store food. Grocery store food is expensive, a hassle to obtain, and very low on the list of what is best for sulcatas. These tortoises are GRASS eaters. From...

tortoiseforum.org

Also, they should never live as pairs. Its a problem now, There doesn't have to be overt obvious hostility for this to be a problem. They don't like each other and don't want to be together, but they can't leave. On the day they decide to actually fight, you might not be home and you'll return to find a dead tortoise. Separate them now, before one gets sick from the chronic stress, or killed.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Hello, and welcome to the forum.

You have a good question, and unfortunately, there just has not been enough research on plant toxicity as it applies to tortoises. Most all the good information available is in reference to studies of livestock and other mammals. We are finding, tortoises are very different and have very different digestive systems that are not affected by many substances plants create to protect themselves from grazing animals. A good example is the raphides many plants carry has been found to be totally innocuous to tortoises. Pothos is a great enclosure plant and tortoises love to eat what they can reach. The elephant ear also listed as do not feed on tortoise table is actually the main food used to raise Galapagos tortoises in the centers on the Galapagos islands.

Lacking any other trusted information, the tortoise table is a great place to start. I simply keep in mind it uses as it's creiteria absolutely any report of any reaction to any animal in deciding if it is a possible problem. That does not mean it is therefore a known problem for tortoises. However, with so many good, safe choices with totally "clean bills of healthy" to err on the side of caution is best without trusted contrary knowledge on a plant.

All great info! As usual.

✅ However, with so many good, safe choices with totally "clean bills of healthy" to err on the side of caution is best without trusted contrary knowledge on a plant.

 

[TC10]

Hello, and welcome to the forum.

You have a good question, and unfortunately, there just has not been enough research on plant toxicity as it applies to tortoises. Most all the good information available is in reference to studies of livestock and other mammals. We are finding, tortoises are very different and have very different digestive systems that are not affected by many substances plants create to protect themselves from grazing animals. A good example is the raphides many plants carry has been found to be totally innocuous to tortoises. Pothos is a great enclosure plant and tortoises love to eat what they can reach. The elephant ear also listed as do not feed on tortoise table is actually the main food used to raise Galapagos tortoises in the centers on the Galapagos islands.

Lacking any other trusted information, the tortoise table is a great place to start. I simply keep in mind it uses as it's creiteria absolutely any report of any reaction to any animal in deciding if it is a possible problem. That does not mean it is therefore a known problem for tortoises. However, with so many good, safe choices with totally "clean bills of healthy" to err on the side of caution is best without trusted contrary knowledge on a plant.

That makes sense. Thank you!
I had no idea where each source was getting their information and how they translated it into recommendations.

I’m in medical school and the way you described reporting of effects sounds very similar to the ways pharmacology and immunology studies must report “side effects” of new drugs/vaccines/medical devices in a study (a.k.a. any new thing that happens to people while they participate in the study must be reported in the side effects list, without proof of causation at all- only correlation. This is true, even if the patient dies from other known causes like heart disease or an accident! They still have to list “death” as a very rare potential effect.)

 

[TC10]

The three items you mentioned are all fine for once in a while feedings.

Your diet needs much more variety, and more greens and leaves. Orchard grass hay or Bermuda hay work much better than Timothy for starters, but how about mulberry leaves, grape vine leaves, spineless opuntia pads, rose of sharon leaves and flowers, squash or pumpkin leaves and flowers, real grass, endive, escarole, mallow, dandelions, sow thistle, broadleaf or narrow leaf plantain, filaree, kudzu leaves, and soooooo many others. Here is a food list:

For Those Who Have a Young Sulcata...

Over and over I type up and answer diet questions and try to get people feeding the right stuff, but I find that the "norm" is grocery store food. Grocery store food is expensive, a hassle to obtain, and very low on the list of what is best for sulcatas. These tortoises are GRASS eaters. From...

tortoiseforum.org

Also, they should never live as pairs. Its a problem now, There doesn't have to be overt obvious hostility for this to be a problem. They don't like each other and don't want to be together, but they can't leave. On the day they decide to actually fight, you might not be home and you'll return to find a dead tortoise. Separate them now, before one gets sick from the chronic stress, or killed.

Thanks for the information! I am really trying to add variety to their diet, as I stated in my original post. I will try to add these things in and grow my own grass.

As far as their living conditions go, I am in the process of building them a larger enclosure where I can separate them. It’s a work in progress, but I’m researching and trying my best to give them the best life. As I stated before, I did not intend to get two, but ended up rescuing them as a packaged pair.

 

[Tom]

Thanks for the information! I am really trying to add variety to their diet, as I stated in my original post. I will try to add these things in and grow my own grass.

As far as their living conditions go, I am in the process of building them a larger enclosure where I can separate them. It’s a work in progress, but I’m researching and trying my best to give them the best life. As I stated before, I did not intend to get two, but ended up rescuing them as a packaged pair.

Awesome!

Here is a housing idea that might make life a little easier. You can build one heated shelter for them to share instead of having to build and heat two:

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[TC10]

Awesome!

Here is a housing idea that might make life a little easier. You can build one heated shelter for them to share instead of having to build and heat two:

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

This is great! Thanks!