Thanks. Should I be concerned about his weight though?
Tom's Brumation Thread
- Thread starter Tom
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I wouldn't be. Tortoises have long GI tracts that carry a lot of weight. Have you ever weighed one of his BMs? Multiply that by several times as the gut clears, and that is a lot of weight.
I can say with authority - no I have not
Is there any big differences when brumating a juvenile box turtle vs tortoises?
Also, any suggestions to slowly lower/raise their temp before/after brumation? I don’t have a garage or yard and I’m a college student, so doing the whole night box thing might not work for me. I do have a full fridge and apartment.
Also, any suggestions to slowly lower/raise their temp before/after brumation? I don’t have a garage or yard and I’m a college student, so doing the whole night box thing might not work for me. I do have a full fridge and apartment.
@Tom i was planning on leaving Fezzik outside a while longer, as he mostly isn't eating (tho we had poop in yesterday's soak for the first time in weeks 8-( ), so now I'm thinking of keeping him inside while I'm away for thanksgiving week, so I can guarantee no food. Its also going to be overcast, rainy and cool during that time, so I'll feel better having him inside anyway and he's not missing out on sunlight or natural warmth.
Question is - what should I set the indoor temperatures for day/night? I'm afraid if I have basking temps during the day per usual, it will throw off his "wind down", as even after the basking light goes out, it will stay pretty warm, maybe get into the 60s overnight. If I have no heat, it will likely be 50s and 60s as a high at all
what would you recommend for light/heat given that?
Question is - what should I set the indoor temperatures for day/night? I'm afraid if I have basking temps during the day per usual, it will throw off his "wind down", as even after the basking light goes out, it will stay pretty warm, maybe get into the 60s overnight. If I have no heat, it will likely be 50s and 60s as a high at all
what would you recommend for light/heat given that?
@Tom just reflagging my question for before I leave town...
No difference. Same concepts and time frames apply.
Raising the temps gradually after brumation can be done in any indoor enclosure.
I would set just the basking lamp for 6-8 hours mid day. No other lights on. No UV. Make them short dim days until its time to slumber for winter.
@Tom - and for anyone in the future reading - is this normal? It’s been 48 hours and he’s still shuffling around a lot more than I would have expected
They do shuffle around during the entire brumation. They aren't unconscious.
I've never watched them with a camera like that, so I couldn't tell you how close to "normal" that is or isn't. I just put them in the fridge and leave them alone. Whenever I do check on them, it clear that they have moved around a bit. I wouldn't know how much they've moved around.
Sedona
New Member
In re: Brumation vs. Hibernation
Dear @Tom and others interested.
Thank you for your excellent and comprehensive post. If, as a retired expert on such things, I may make a friendly amendment to your discussion of brumation and hibernation...
Most if not all vertebrates and many invertebrates have the ability to sense and regulate body temperature. Birds and mammals (and, interestingly, exceptional reptiles, fishes, and insects) can do this via internal heat production/metabolism, whereas other vertebrates must rely on external heat sources and sinks to do this. For example, in nature tortoises may bask in the sun (or move to shade) to regulate their body temperature. Reptiles have some ability to modulate this through changes in posture/orientation, color, circulation of blood, and evaporative cooling.
When animals able to regulate their body temperature only through external sources and sinks (aka "ectotherms") are unable to do so, their body temperatures equilibrate to their surroundings by the same processes that lead a hot or cold object to cool or heat, respectively, if left at "room temperature." When this happens to a live organism, its metabolism increases or decreases as it heats or cools, respectively, as does its depletion of stored energy and other body processes such as ability to move, sense, and digest -- provided, that is, that the body temperature is not so extreme as to kill the animal. Presumably when a tortoise remains in a burrow in nature, whether overnight or overwinter, it is protected from thermal conditions that might kill it outright/eventually or render it unable to escape from predators. Sometimes this saves energy and/or reduces the depletion of stored energy, sometimes not. [In a deep burrow, the temperature equals the long-term average above-ground temperature. Hypothetically a tortoise could reduce depletion of energy stores if it remained exposed to much colder weather, but that would entail other risks.]
By contrast, because birds and mammals (aka "endotherms") CAN generally regulate their body temperature by increasing internal heat production as temperatures cool (and vice versa), they can more or less maintain constant levels of body processes in diverse thermal environments. The problem is that this takes at least 10 times as much energy as ectotherms use daily. Hence, when food sufficient for needed internal heat production is unavailable, many birds and mammals will abandon high levels of internal heat production and become temporary endotherms. [ Unlike most reptiles, however, they have the ability to resume high levels of internal heat production as needed.] Some birds and mammals will do this during the inactive period (e.g., days for bats, nights for birds), more so at cooler temperatures when more heat production would be needed to maintain a constant high temperature. Some will do it seasonally when food and/or water is unavailable. But it is generally "about" surviving food or water limitation; temporary ectothermy is the means to this end.
In mammals, the seasonable abandonment of high body temperatures takes two forms. Small mammals cool quickly if they reduce heat production, so they may readily/rapidly allow themselves to cool and regain normal temperatures. This is true "hibernation". During entry small mammals follow a highly orchestrated and elaborate pattern of cooling; the same is true as they arouse. Many will arouse and regain "normal" body temperature several times during a winter, which is beyond the heat production capacity of endotherms. While hibernating small mammals do "burn fat", which they accumulate prior to hibernation, but in this respect they do not differ from overwintering tortoises. Fat contains twice as much energy per gram as its alternatives, so it is an efficient way to store energy for when food is unavailable. Finally, during hibernation small mammals continue to regulate their (much lower than normal) body temperature, whereas ectotherms often cannot. Large mammals, by contrast, by virtue of their larger body mass, take so much time to cool and arouse and would consume so much energy to arouse that the small mammal pattern is impractical. Most maintain constant high body temperatures throughout the year. Some exceptions, such as bears, allow their body temperatures to drop a few degrees during winter and use energy-sparing metabolic processes distinct from hibernation.
So, in summary, when food is unavailable birds and small mammals actively turn off their metabolic heaters to extend their energy stores, whereas tortoises and other reptiles only need occupy cool environments to accomplish the same end. If it helps to use "hibernation" to designate the seasonal small mammal variant of this and "brumation" to designate the reptilian variant, more power to you. Tortoises presumably do not care which you use.
Dear @Tom and others interested.
Thank you for your excellent and comprehensive post. If, as a retired expert on such things, I may make a friendly amendment to your discussion of brumation and hibernation...
Most if not all vertebrates and many invertebrates have the ability to sense and regulate body temperature. Birds and mammals (and, interestingly, exceptional reptiles, fishes, and insects) can do this via internal heat production/metabolism, whereas other vertebrates must rely on external heat sources and sinks to do this. For example, in nature tortoises may bask in the sun (or move to shade) to regulate their body temperature. Reptiles have some ability to modulate this through changes in posture/orientation, color, circulation of blood, and evaporative cooling.
When animals able to regulate their body temperature only through external sources and sinks (aka "ectotherms") are unable to do so, their body temperatures equilibrate to their surroundings by the same processes that lead a hot or cold object to cool or heat, respectively, if left at "room temperature." When this happens to a live organism, its metabolism increases or decreases as it heats or cools, respectively, as does its depletion of stored energy and other body processes such as ability to move, sense, and digest -- provided, that is, that the body temperature is not so extreme as to kill the animal. Presumably when a tortoise remains in a burrow in nature, whether overnight or overwinter, it is protected from thermal conditions that might kill it outright/eventually or render it unable to escape from predators. Sometimes this saves energy and/or reduces the depletion of stored energy, sometimes not. [In a deep burrow, the temperature equals the long-term average above-ground temperature. Hypothetically a tortoise could reduce depletion of energy stores if it remained exposed to much colder weather, but that would entail other risks.]
By contrast, because birds and mammals (aka "endotherms") CAN generally regulate their body temperature by increasing internal heat production as temperatures cool (and vice versa), they can more or less maintain constant levels of body processes in diverse thermal environments. The problem is that this takes at least 10 times as much energy as ectotherms use daily. Hence, when food sufficient for needed internal heat production is unavailable, many birds and mammals will abandon high levels of internal heat production and become temporary endotherms. [ Unlike most reptiles, however, they have the ability to resume high levels of internal heat production as needed.] Some birds and mammals will do this during the inactive period (e.g., days for bats, nights for birds), more so at cooler temperatures when more heat production would be needed to maintain a constant high temperature. Some will do it seasonally when food and/or water is unavailable. But it is generally "about" surviving food or water limitation; temporary ectothermy is the means to this end.
In mammals, the seasonable abandonment of high body temperatures takes two forms. Small mammals cool quickly if they reduce heat production, so they may readily/rapidly allow themselves to cool and regain normal temperatures. This is true "hibernation". During entry small mammals follow a highly orchestrated and elaborate pattern of cooling; the same is true as they arouse. Many will arouse and regain "normal" body temperature several times during a winter, which is beyond the heat production capacity of endotherms. While hibernating small mammals do "burn fat", which they accumulate prior to hibernation, but in this respect they do not differ from overwintering tortoises. Fat contains twice as much energy per gram as its alternatives, so it is an efficient way to store energy for when food is unavailable. Finally, during hibernation small mammals continue to regulate their (much lower than normal) body temperature, whereas ectotherms often cannot. Large mammals, by contrast, by virtue of their larger body mass, take so much time to cool and arouse and would consume so much energy to arouse that the small mammal pattern is impractical. Most maintain constant high body temperatures throughout the year. Some exceptions, such as bears, allow their body temperatures to drop a few degrees during winter and use energy-sparing metabolic processes distinct from hibernation.
So, in summary, when food is unavailable birds and small mammals actively turn off their metabolic heaters to extend their energy stores, whereas tortoises and other reptiles only need occupy cool environments to accomplish the same end. If it helps to use "hibernation" to designate the seasonal small mammal variant of this and "brumation" to designate the reptilian variant, more power to you. Tortoises presumably do not care which you use.
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
One thing that I have been wondering is, that tortoises have to fast before brumation where as mammals have to stock up on food and eat more before hibernation. Can you explain the difference? Does it have to do with the digestion?
Sedona
New Member
First, I am neither a reptile veterinarian nor familiar with every species. Please do not take my response as a basis for tortoise care.
My guess is, in the wild, yes, no, and maybe. In nature, the onset of prolonged inactivity follows cooler temperatures, less opportunity for basking, and less food abundance/quality -- and hence either less eating or no eating. Were there to be exceptional hot weather at this time with copious food available, my guess is that tortoises in nature would not pass it up. But if by fasting is meant voluntary cessation of eating while food is available in tortoises active/outside shelter, I think not. I would want to have this confirmed by observations of free-roaming tortoises in the wild, however, and know of no such observations. Perhaps others do?
In captive tortoises, I suspect it is a good idea because their food is usually not natural in quality and quantity. The cooler temperatures and lack of basking associated with overwintering will decrease if not stop digestion and may lead the food in a full gut to rot, which is not good for the surrounding tissue. By contrast, many natural foods (at least in desert tortoises) are more rot-resistant that what's fed captive tortoises.
So, to turn to your question as stated: Withholding food from captive tortoises before overwintering does have to do with digestion, or lack thereof. Both hibernating mammals and overwintering tortoises have to subsist on stored energy, which both need to accumulate during the active season. When not hibernating, mammals digest food much more rapidly than reptiles, so my guess is that when hibernation begins their stomachs and small intestines are free of food (and hence less prone to decay of undigested food) unlike in overfed tortoises in captivity. Interestingly, it appears that in hibernators the large intestine retains enough so that the resident bacteria convert it to substances useful during hibernation (https://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/microbe...cle-nutrients-maintain-muscle-through-winter/ ). No idea if the same is true of tortoises, but it might be.
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
Thanks, good enough answer for me. I wasn't planning on NOT fasting my tortoise before brumation anyway
It has to do with food rotting in the gut. Because of MUCH higher metabolic needs, mammals really don't need to fast for very long before hibernation. Their gut transit time is relatively fast. Tortoise gut transit time is slow, even at normal operation temperatures. Even slower in colder fall temperatures.
Wild reptiles DO fast all on their own even when food is available.
Sedona
New Member
WRT "Wild reptiles DO fast all on their own even when food is available", do you mean even when thermal and other circumstances (I am thinking here, for example, of predator avoidance, female alligators' nest-guarding behavior, and during territorial defense and courtship, which distract from feeding) are permissive of feeding? If so, can you cite specific instances? Just curious.
Sedona
New Member
I guess I should add to circumstances that distract from feeding in wild reptiles: having just fed. Once their guts are full, they will often refrain from feeding until digestion is partially if not fully complete.
I mean prior to brumation. Lower temperatures, reduced photoperiod, seasonal reduced light intensity, and perhaps other factors that we don't know about, all cue them to stop eating in preparation for brumation.
Sedona
New Member
Acknowledged with thanks.
WRT other matters in this string:
•I have consulted an authority on mammalian hibernation, who tells me that mammalian hibernators often fast prior to hibernation. Unlike in tortoises, mammalian hibernators undergo one or more brief bouts of hibernation before prolonged hibernation, arousing after each. They do not eat after the last of these. Also unlike in tortoises, they spontaneously arouse (i.e., raise metabolism to achieve what would be normal body temperature outside of hibernation) several times during prolonged hibernation. If any food remains in the gut, it is defecated during these spontaneous arousals.
•It is highly likely that bacteria in the tortoise gut extract/repurpose protein in gut contents during hibernation -- and for that matter outside of hibernation. It's now been established in non-hibernating mammals (e.g., humans) and in hibernating frogs.
WRT other matters in this string:
•I have consulted an authority on mammalian hibernation, who tells me that mammalian hibernators often fast prior to hibernation. Unlike in tortoises, mammalian hibernators undergo one or more brief bouts of hibernation before prolonged hibernation, arousing after each. They do not eat after the last of these. Also unlike in tortoises, they spontaneously arouse (i.e., raise metabolism to achieve what would be normal body temperature outside of hibernation) several times during prolonged hibernation. If any food remains in the gut, it is defecated during these spontaneous arousals.
•It is highly likely that bacteria in the tortoise gut extract/repurpose protein in gut contents during hibernation -- and for that matter outside of hibernation. It's now been established in non-hibernating mammals (e.g., humans) and in hibernating frogs.
what defines hibernation? seems to me turtles and tortoises go in and out of hibernation many times during the season, prolonged hibernation happens when the environmental conditions dictate it ......
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