Too much humidity?

[Reptilian Feline]

Even after adding more ventilation, the "rehab centre" box is dripping wet. I pulled back the heatmat from the hole in the lid to get more fresh air inside, and after I had sprayed him to wake him up (he likes that, I think) and placing him on his food (he ate very little) he walked over to sleep under the hole in the lid.
I think I might be keeping still a bit on the low end of the heat scale. I'll dial up the CHE a bit further on the dimmer (there is still room for that) to get around 32 or 33 Celcius under the CHE. When I measured the heat from his shell yesterday it was around 30 C but I don't know how accurate the IR thermometer really is. I'll keep the heat mat pulled back from the hole so some moisture can escape during the day.

I belive he was raised dry and a bit on the cold side, so he isn't really used to this hot and humid climate in his closed chamber setup. He always responds well when soaked and sprayed, perks up and becomes active, and also when I bring him outside and it's hot and dry.

I want him to be comfortabel. I can (I think) counter pyramiding with daily soaks (he already gets those) and misting. I just don't want to bake him.

 

[wellington]

Is this tort sick? If not then the over all temps need to be 80F with at least 80% humidity higher won't hurt and a basking temp of 95-100F, a little higher won't hurt. If the tort is sick then the over all temp should be 85F.
Too cold and wet will make him sick.

 

[Reptilian Feline]

It's hot and humid, no sign of RI. I fear another failure to thrive.

I gave him a good soak today and then weighed him. 31 gram. He has been down to 28 gram and was 30 gram when I got him. Born in April 2016, same as the one that died (who was 4 cm and weighed 16 gram). This one is 6 cm in shell length.

His eyes seem to bother him. He keeps them more closed now, and it takes longer for him to open them. I don't know if it's the humidity or the bright light from the basking light that is the cause of that. I've already removed the basking light (it was a solar flood kind) and replaced it with extra heat from atop with a heat mat. The UVB tube light is now all the light he gets, but that seems like plenty, after I added some aluminium foil as reflectors.

I fear that he has been exposed too long to a coil bulb at the breeder's. The breeder recommended a night time temp of 19-20 celcius (66-68F) so it had to be dry or I'm sure this one would have an RI. The pet stores here use coil bulbs in their terraria... at least most of the ones I've looked into properly. The coil bulb is very popular because of the small size.

I put him in front of his food after the soak. He didn't eat.

I've just moved the heat mat to the side of the tank instead, and will see what that does to the temp.

I feel like such a failure right now.

 

[Kasia]

If he was raised in 20 deg C, dry I think over 30 and high humidity is a shocker for him. He will need a couple of days to adjust. Can you post a pic of your setup? I will give us a better view of where you have him. And your not a failure your doing all you can for him did you check his stool for worms? I do understand he is captive breed not an import, or is he?

 

[Kasia]

How long is he with you?

 

[Reptilian Feline]

If he was raised in 20 deg C, dry I think over 30 and high humidity is a shocker for him. He will need a couple of days to adjust. Can you post a pic of your setup? I will give us a better view of where you have him. And your not a failure your doing all you can for him did you check his stool for worms? I do understand he is captive breed not an import, or is he?

I only know the night time temp, not what temp it was during the day at the breeder's. He is captive bred in Sweden. I brought him home on June 14 this year and put him in the small "hospital box" his sibling had been in (after a thurough clean). It had a CHE for night time temp, the solar flood for daytime temp and basking and high humidity. He seemed OK at first, but around the time I got the UVB tube and fixture, he had already started to close his eyes more. I figured it was the basking light that was hurting him, so I put together this new enclosure that would allow for more variation. He started to hide away from the basking light, so I turned it down, and then removed it completely.
I'm using a different thermometer at the moment to check the temp in different areas, since I don't trust the IR thermometer at the moment.

I hate not knowing if it is my fault or the breeder's fault this one is declining. He seemed perky when I bought him home. The summer not being so good, he didn't get a lot of daylight sunshine for UVB to begin with, but now it's on all day in his box, and I don't think there is a problem with that.

Pictures to come.

 

[Reptilian Feline]

First 3 images with high humidity, rest with the changes I've made and with the lid off the hole to make measurements. The last image is taken through the hole in the lid.

 

[Kasia]

Check for parasites, mine little had a rough start because of them... and was on a small side until I got him dewormed. Took him ages to go to a 100 g. He has been a while with you so he should adjust till now. Is his poop runny?

 

[Kasia]

First 3 images with high humidity, rest with the changes I've made and with the lid off the hole to make measurements. The last image is taken through the hole in the lid.View attachment 213976 View attachment 213977 View attachment 213978 View attachment 213979 View attachment 213980 View attachment 213981

Your enclosure looks great!
Mine Nini says hi

 

[Reptilian Feline]

Say Hi to Nini for me

The stools look OK when they come, looks like tiny versions of other stools in water I've seen here. I can't find any clear evidense of worms or parasites, but then I don't have a microscope.

Ground up sunflower seeds are used to de-worm Giant Africa Landsnails, but I think that is purely mechanic. I don't think that would work on a tort. I don't want to give meds without confirmation that it's needed.

At this point, my medical thought is that a vitamine B shot might do some good... it does in snakes that won't eat. In torts - I don't know enough.

 

[Kasia]

I wouldn't give him any vitamin shots. How often does he eat? I mean do you see him eat daily?

 

[Reptilian Feline]

I feed him daily, but he never finish his food. He ate more in the beginning (I think, I did compare him to his sibling who barely ate at all), and seemed to like radicchio, clover and opuntia most. Two days ago I gave him some exersice outside sand he had some leaf while outside, yesterday, same exersice, didn't eat from the leaf I gave him outside, don't know if he actually ate anything later... sometimes he makes motions as to be eating but misses the food and then sort of gives up.

I'll try some opuntia today... maybe he is backed up and needs to poop... the cactus should get that going.

 

[Kasia]

If he doesn't eat much he won't poop much either. I would ask the breeder what did he feed him and how his siblings are doing...and still check the poop...I'm keeping mine fingers crossed for you both!

 

[Tom]

I'll share my observations:

• First, that enclosure is way too small. you can't make a good thermal gradient in something that small. You need something at least double that size. 61x122cm is a good size for starting a baby.
• The wetness on the sides of your enclosure indicate that humidity inside is good and that the room temp outside is cold. Its condensation.
• 30-32C is okay for an ambient, but the tortoise still needs a basking area where it can warm up to 36-37. This is meant to simulate the sun outside. It also needs room to move away from thereat source, which is tough in a small enclosure.
• If the breeder you got this tortoise from was letting it get cold at night and keeping it dry, then there might be nothing you can do. You should not feel like a failure. The breeder should. You are doing everything you can, but you can't undo damage that the breeder did.

 

[Markw84]

I agree with Tom that your hospital tank is too small. It is good for a week or so to get a sick tortoise in a very controlled temp/humidity, but not for a long term situation. Exercise is so important. They need room to walk about. Without that, they will eat less and sleep more.

Baby tortoises do sleep a lot, and hide a lot. But they should have some active periods where they can roam about and push through grass and bushes. Pushing through grass is great exercise and also keeps them hidden.

I personally find leopards do like it hot. A basking area of 36° is great but you need a larger enclosure to give a gradient. My ambient in my enclosures will climb to 33° this time of year, and my leopards seem to do quite well in that and will still choose to bask.

As Tom mentioned, the condensation is a reflection of the difference in temps between room temp and inside the enclosure. You will get condensation on a glass of cold drink even with humidity as low as 20%! Since your enclosure is single walled plastic, you will get condensation easily with the temp differential.

We also knew, before you picked this one up, that you were taking a risk getting another from the same breeder that we know does not start babies in a humid environment and allows much cooler temps. This one has had some growth before, which is a better sign, but still may not have the organ development to take off and thrive. Give more space. Do the outside time for an hour or so and let him push through some grass and graze if he will. Continue to soak and perhaps do a 30 - 45 min soak and see if you can get him moving around in the soaking tub. Will probably have to do a few water changes to keep the temp up. I like to keep my soak water temp starting at 35° and then refresh when the water drops to 30° I also always soak my tortoises in water that comes up ABOVE where the marginal meet the costals. That seems deeper than most people recommend here, but I firmly believe it hydrates them better, and stimulates more movement with the partial buoyancy. Soaking time is key exercise time for my young tortoises.

Those temp heat guns (IR gun) are normally pretty accurate.

 

[Reptilian Feline]

Mark - I do worry so because of the breeder. I just thought that whatever the breeder gave me, it would need a lot of help getting healthy, and that I might fail. Moving him to a bigger box (this one is about twice the size of the other one) was meant to make him move around more, climb, explore, and still not get too cold.

I freaked out when his eyes got puffy. The scale above (like his eyebrow) was really swollen on both sides. He was avoiding the basking light, so I thought the light might be huritng his eyes. There is no problem putting it back and so on.

Kasia - I have tried to get answers out of the breeder, but he ignores my questions.

I want him to move, to get some exersice, but right now it's raining and it's too cold outside for him (stupid Swedish summer). I don't want him to run around on the floor because of all the dog hairs (and human too) and he doesn't seem to like the shoe tray I bought for him. He just sits there or tries to eat the knobbly bits (he can't, they're too big).

When I soak him I make sure it gets deep, sometimes I have him swim (he floats nicely), and deep warm water helps a little. Today after 45 min of switching out the water and so on, he did poop. It looked a bit browner and smelled very much like poo, but seemed OK. He didn't want to eat afterwards.

I'll try and get him moving more, I know he needs it.

How many CHEs do I need to install to keep a tank that is 90x40x40 cm warm enought in all spots?

 

[Reptilian Feline]

The tank is made of glass and I need to cover its top. And find a place for it. And build a stand for it.

I put the basking light back on. We'll see how his eyes get.

 

[Kasia]

Mark - I do worry so because of the breeder. I just thought that whatever the breeder gave me, it would need a lot of help getting healthy, and that I might fail. Moving him to a bigger box (this one is about twice the size of the other one) was meant to make him move around more, climb, explore, and still not get too cold.

I freaked out when his eyes got puffy. The scale above (like his eyebrow) was really swollen on both sides. He was avoiding the basking light, so I thought the light might be huritng his eyes. There is no problem putting it back and so on.

Kasia - I have tried to get answers out of the breeder, but he ignores my questions.

I want him to move, to get some exersice, but right now it's raining and it's too cold outside for him (stupid Swedish summer). I don't want him to run around on the floor because of all the dog hairs (and human too) and he doesn't seem to like the shoe tray I bought for him. He just sits there or tries to eat the knobbly bits (he can't, they're too big).

When I soak him I make sure it gets deep, sometimes I have him swim (he floats nicely), and deep warm water helps a little. Today after 45 min of switching out the water and so on, he did poop. It looked a bit browner and smelled very much like poo, but seemed OK. He didn't want to eat afterwards.

I'll try and get him moving more, I know he needs it.

How many CHEs do I need to install to keep a tank that is 90x40x40 cm warm enought in all spots?

How much wattege does your CHE have? I would say one if above 75 W. And with all respect to @Tom and @Markw84 knowledge I would wait with moving him till he perks up a bit. New enclosure is a big stress for an animal. Even same enclosure in a new space can be visible in tortoise behavior.

 

[Reptilian Feline]

How much wattege does your CHE have? I would say one if above 75 W.

That's the thing that gets me confused... the CHE is in one spot. If I want it to heat the entire enclosure so it's above room temp at 25 C to about 27 C in the coldest spot, it needs to be too hot just below it, right? The height of the tank is 40 cm, so it can't be higher up than that. I could look for the short stemmed ones specially made for lower enclosures, but still... spreading the heat would be a problem with just one? Should I install a fan? I just don't want him to get cold and get a runny nose.

Exersice attempt failed. PLaced him under the basking light, and at least he moved away from that. I guess I can place him under the lamp over and over again to get him moving. Sorry about that little one! No sleep for you, you need to walk.

 

[Kasia]

In a small enclosure one could do just fine. Check the temperature at the tortoise ground level. If it's closed chamber heat will diffuse on all sides and 27 C in the coldest place is still ok