Tortoise angel

[Kapidolo Farms]

Hey everybody,

I did a presentation for the Dan Diego Turtle and Tortoise Society last Friday. My wife is super great to find that a good Valentine Day date.

They had annual elections and the man running the evening events read the Mission Statement.

One roughly quoted phrase was that the society does not endorse the sale of chelonians. My thought was "Really". Then in consultation with my tortoise wife (Yvonne) I learn this is very typical, that this point of view is very common in the mission statement of many societies and clubs.

So, that indicates to me many many folks out there believe in "Tortoise Angels", people who will gladly give away an animal they don't have a further interest in.

That's a nice idea, Tortoise Angels. But I have seen dozens of these tortoises, and their lives have often been a real Hell. Inattentive owners, people who don't want to witness the death and experience the guilt of poor husbandry seem to embody the majority of the tortoise angels I have met. Not 100%, but most.

I could tell you some stories here, but to what end? I'm not so keen to be a "Oh that's horrible" story perpetrator. I don't seek to be in the unpleasant things in life that happen.

To pick on Tom, a bit, I'd rather read another success anecdote about heating, house building, whatever. Mikeh and his detailed lighting posts which are some of the more compelling posts I read.

For of you who live on the wings of hope for a Tortoise Angel to come into your life and gift to you a healthy adult reproducing Radiated Tortoises good luck, Really.

Otherwise please give a look see at another post I have called 54 weeks STRONG.

 

[T33's Torts]

What on earth is a "tortoise wife"?!

 

[ascott]

I think I am confused...perhaps because I have been outside all day rebuilding CDT enclosures and am crazy tired or perhaps it is the third glass of Moscato I am on????

Will, are you saying that the shared feeling of the tortoise clubs is to;

Not promote breeding and selling of torts for profit, due to the fact that most of those purposely bred torts end up in unfavorable situations and then are placed with organizations/people after the torts are in some type of distress?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Re: RE: Tortoise angel

What on earth is a "tortoise wife"?!

Seriously? A tortoise spouse is who you "do it" with regarding tortoises. My bride is not a captive animal person so much. Yvonne and I have been tortoise married for about 23 years now.

 

[Yvonne G]

I think there's a slight mis-conception of the rules. I can't speak to the San Diego Club's by-laws, but the by-laws at the CTTC state that tortoises cannot be bought and sold during club meetings or at club shows.

We always got around that rule by doing our buying and selling out in the parking lot.

 

[Tom]

I know a CTTC member who was kicked out of the club for talking about sales during a show.

This is why I don't join.

Will, What was the topic you presented?

 

[Yvonne G]

Tom: Was that Michael? He actually was kicked off the board. And he really didn't sell during the show like they accused him of doing...he was taking money for a booklet that a kid was buying while his mother was holding the turtle or tortoise that she was looking at.

I think this is an outdated bylaw and needs to be re-addressed next time they think about by-law amendments.

 

[Jacqui]

Will, What was the topic you presented?

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-87271.html

 

[Tom]

No. It was Cory. I don't know if he was technically "guilty" or not, but I find the policy ridiculous. I bought 8 of my russians at a meeting if the Valley chapter. There were at least two members openly selling RFs and RTs. The speaker even announced it. I hope this doesn't get anyone in trouble, but maybe some people are trying to change this from the inside. Ironically, this is the chapter that booted Cory two or three years earlier.

Trends or "long held beliefs" that I see that should be addressed are:
1. The no breeding, no selling bias.
2. The whole beef jerky maker style enclosures that they promote, especially for hatchlings and CDTs. I find it tragically ironic that at their shows they have a booth showing these incredibly large bladder and kidney "stones" that were surgically removed from dehydrated tortoises, while telling everyone that if you don't keep your CDT totally dry all the time in an open table with hot bulbs, it will get RIs or shell rot. This is just so wrong.

It seems to me that a large percentage of the membership read a 20 year old tortoise book and they are really sticking to that info and teaching it to anyone who will listen. For some of them, no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise. To be fair, many of the members are open minded and eager to learn, but I've seen the leadership openly discourage this.

 

[T33's Torts]

Re: RE: Tortoise angel

What on earth is a "tortoise wife"?!

Seriously? A tortoise spouse is who you "do it" with regarding tortoises. My bride is not a captive animal person so much. Yvonne and I have been tortoise married for about 23 years now.

Okay then. I feel much more educated now, thank you.

 

[Yvonne G]

Actually, in real life, Will is married to a lovely lady named Tamara, who, it seems, was totally happy being treated on Valentine's Day to a presentation at a tortoise club meeting. While, Will and I, in tortoise life, are tortoise partners.

 

[kimber_lee_314]

I usually give my hatchlings away for a donation to the CTTC, but I have had members encourage me to sell them - so I guess it all depends on the chapter you belong to. I believe there are some chapters that require membership before being allowed to adopt, and I have heard this is against CTTC policy (although I actually don't know this for sure.) I personally think membership and attending a few meetings before adopting is a good idea. It generates money for the club (especially for some mighty ill tortoises who need medical attention) while helping new adopters become a little educated on proper care.

---

It seems to me that a large percentage of the membership read a 20 year old tortoise book and they are really sticking to that info and teaching it to anyone who will listen. For some of them, no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise. To be fair, many of the members are open minded and eager to learn, but I've seen the leadership openly discourage this.

I have to politely disagree with this statement. I have attended CTTC shows and meetings from four different chapters. I have found all of them to be very open minded about husbandry. True, even after much education, some people hold on to their old ways of thinking, but for the most part I find everyone to be sincerely interested in the best care of their tortoises. Just my observation ...

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I think I am confused...perhaps because I have been outside all day rebuilding CDT enclosures and am crazy tired or perhaps it is the third glass of Moscato I am on????

Will, are you saying that the shared feeling of the tortoise clubs is to;

Not promote breeding and selling of torts for profit, due to the fact that most of those purposely bred torts end up in unfavorable situations and then are placed with organizations/people after the torts are in some type of distress?

Well, I'm saying that's my understanding, my awareness of why the 'no sale' is part of the mission statements. I suppose I could be wrong, and/or it's more complicated than that. What's your take?

---

So In more general terms, I think it is a situational matter. If animals are donated, for the purpose of rehoming, THROUGH the club, then a modest adoption fee seems like it would be appropriate. I don't think those animals donated to a club should be sold. But then if you receive an animal and turn around and sell it or it's offspring, at a later time, it affords the opportunity for people to see what might be a conflict of interest.

Me, I told the local club if they had an animal I wanted to adopt, I would pay a rational retail price for it, and own it, no strings attached, to them or me. This tends to be what happens anyways whether explicit or based on a forgotten appellation, or intent-full wrong doing.

I know several folks like to have the hatchlings and just give them away, sorta lots of fun to do that. This kind of reproduction program is fine, and offers many folks a chance to get a tortoise or turtle they might not otherwise have.

What I see at some meetings though from some people, and this is a based on a lifetime of attending meetings from as long ago as the early 1970's (Bay Area Turtle and Tortoise Club) to more recently at the San Diego T&T Society, and many many in-between are the folks who are there cruising for free animals, no matter what they are, or at least that's what it feels like. Almost like an entitlement of membership.

I've also seen lots of 'guilt' burnout by folks who run the adoption programs, and I can see how they could feel un-appreciated with folks selling animals they can't give away, as a grand many animals for adoption are grossly mis shaped due to poor husbandry. I heard from one very reliable source that even a Cal Fish and Game person (uniform wearing at the time) dropped off a sulcata that had likely been dropped (plastron fractured) then held for that ever hopeful "well it will come through" perspective, only to be turned over to an adoption person when all hope was lost. Because in my opinion they did not have the integrity to seek vet care when it would have worked (potentially) and did not want to endure the shame of their actions.

Blah blah blah. It seems some common sense policies could be implemented or else live meeting venues will continue to be hangouts for the mostly internet illiterate and those who will take any free animal available which for the most part includes huge male sulcatas, screwed up leopards, some russians, and by law - CDTs.

Of corse in reality land there are no free animals, and I would argue that after 20 years of ownership a radiated and a "free" sulcata will cost about the same.

 

[ascott]

Well, I'm saying that's my understanding, my awareness of why the 'no sale' is part of the mission statements. I suppose I could be wrong, and/or it's more complicated than that. What's your take?

Well, Will---here is where I am going to express my heart felt feelings on "no sale" and where I will also sound as though I play both sides of the coin....so here I bare my feelings;

My heart says, we humans, have no right to place ownership on another living creature (this is the way I live my life as a whole)...here is where the flip side of the coin comes into play;

I have two dogs that live in our home, against my heart felt beliefs--but the flip side of that coin is that if I did not take in these two particular dogs they both were on their way to certain pound death--so, my son and I voluntarily brought them into our home...I have no regrets on this decision faced with the life facts (had the parents of the dogs been handled properly they likely would not have have been subjected to their life prior to my son and myself---but they are here, and were in a place that us stepping in continued their life and I would like to think, they enjoy their days. That coin revealed both sides here.

I put bird feed out each and every morning (rain or shine) and in exchange for this behavior, the quail, doves, black birds, finch all parade round the front of the property in groves, taking turns with one another to partake of the morning bounty before they move onto to their next stop....I own nothing, I enjoy every bit of their stop in....I provide a water shallow for the black birds to flutter around in, the Ravens to drink from (I have a deal with them, unspoken of course, that if I provide this water location for them they don't drop into the CDTs yards to partake of their water) and the other birds as well....again, I own none of them but completely enjoy their visits, like clock work...

There are a handful of cats that are here, thanks to the neighbors behavior of letting loose two female cats not fixed, I own none of them....however, I do put food out in the morning and evening...they show up and chow down and then go on their way...a couple of them hang around moreso than the others...they appear to enjoy a kind word or two and perhaps a scratch behind the ears...then they do their thing...oh, and they have rid the property of gopher and squirrels that were trying to overrun the area---fair trade off to me...I do not own them (even though folks joke that once you feed a cat it is yours, this simply is not correct, they absolutely pay me no attention unless they feel the need)...

The CDTs all came to my property from a variety of paths....I would in a moment, love them to have remained in the wild to live out their life there...where they belong....in a heartbeat I would have loved them to remained there....for whatever reason, they each found their way to our home....they are not subject to be returned to their wildland, and this is due 100% as a result of a human....so here, they will remain to live out their days---if I should return to my maker before they do---my son will assure they are safe....and if his life journey should make that not possible then he is certain to assure they will move onto their next leg of their journey....again, we do not own them, we simply appreciate them for their presence...I am a buffer in this world for the captive environment they are forced into...just both sides of the coin, in my world view, shared here...

I have been also blessed with Redfoot torts...two little ones bestowed on me by someone who felt I could be trusted with their care....I will buffer their life the best that I can....

I also adopted two other Redfoot torts from a prior member who had other species interest and merely was part of the buffer for these two until they reached where they are now ...

So, I would say that in my personal, heartfelt self--- I personally would not allow breeding amongst any captive tortoise/or any animal in my care...it just goes against what feels right "to me" for "me". This does not in anyway lay suggestion to what works for me should be rule for all---I do not believe my feelings should be imposed on anyone else....

The wild birds, well, they are going to decide for themselves....the neighborhood cats, well, they are going to decide for themselves as well as nature handles alot of this decision making...very much to my surprise.

As for this talk of Turtle and Tortoise clubs delegating to other folks their beliefs? They can suck it----I have been to meetings and watched and listened to the silly information, as well as pertinent information, the rules and guidelines that some ordinary folks feel compelled to force onto others---while those folks have way too many captives in their care---and those captive are allowed to be housed together and procreate with nowhere for those offspring to realistically go----this is illogical behavior to me--- while they are spewing their rules and regs to folks...telling them breeding, selling, collecting is wrong? It is one sided....I mean after all, we are all in this the same, no one person has the answers..no matter how much they jump up and down and demand they do....the clubs are simply full of people no different than one another----but some who have been around a bit longer feel that for some reason they should be looked "up to"--silliness, I have heard fantastic suggestions and thoughts from "newbies" that is free from years of taint...

I do not know if this is what you were in for but just my feelings..

 

[Jacqui]

I do not know if this is what you were in for but just my feelings..

Made for a very interesting read.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Well, I'm saying that's my understanding, my awareness of why the 'no sale' is part of the mission statements. I suppose I could be wrong, and/or it's more complicated than that. What's your take?

I do not know if this is what you were in for but just my feelings..

I edited most of your response, no need to have all the text multiple times in the same thread.

I think I have a fair idea of what you are getting at. I'd say I understand, but do not own what you are saying.

So you have been blessed with tortoise angels, but have a grounded view to not 'expect' the tortoise angle, nor do you want to offer any up.

I have much personal work history where animals' death is a part of the job, for meat for people, for meat for carnivores, and for research. I see breeding the captives in my care as a path to some balance. It takes effort, time and $. I want some of that $ returned to me for my outlay.

As for clubs' rules. I'll respect the rule as a default agreement while in the realm, but I don't respect the rule otherwise. I see it as draconian BS.

 

[ascott]

So you have been blessed with tortoise angels,

I think there may be some difference on views, depending on what part of the fence we sit on....I will use the CDTs here for reference point; while I do enjoy the interaction---I would happily never have them in a forced captive situation---I deplore the thought of the species being kept in captivity....let alone people housing them in such a way that they procreate....I am glad that this is a species that can not be legally sold....


but have a grounded view to not 'expect' the tortoise angle,

I wish that humans would leave wild animals there as they should be---in the wild, not only do humans rip them from the wild we then go in and consume that space so it is not possible for them to live there ...then we have the nerve to say "if it were not for human aid they would have no chance"--ridiculous ...

nor do you want to offer any up.

It is not my place to sell another living creature...another living creature can not be "owned" --although humans believe it is somehow our "right" to do so...

It takes effort, time and $. I want some of that $ returned to me for my outlay.

This statement will never find us on the same field, ever....totally different views...

As I said, my views and beliefs are mine and sharing them in no way is done to recruit anyone...we all have our own.