Tortoise Mythbusters!

[Tom]

How about...
1. 'Dies on their backs quickly'
2. 'Likes/needs high heat, dry climates'
3. 'Can go a long time without food'
4. 'Only needs to eat (fill in the blank)'
5. 'Lives for 200 years (as a regular thing)'
6. 'Grows to space provided'
...?

1. Busted. Probably days for most species, if not in the summer sun.
2. Probable. Some adults yes. Babies no.
3. Confirmed. Adult Galops can go more than a year. Smaller species, several months, at least. This one I've seen.
4. Unanswerable. The difference would be surviving. vs. thriving. I'll bet they could live for several years, if fed nothing but endive or romaine.
5. I believe this one to be true, but we'll all be dead before we can Bust or Confirm it. For our purposes here, it can't be answered.
6. Busted. Sadly, I've witnessed this one too.

 

[Neal]

1. Busted. Probably days for most species, if not in the summer sun.
2. Probable. Some adults yes. Babies no.
3. Confirmed. Adult Galops can go more than a year. Smaller species, several months, at least. This one I've seen.
4. Unanswerable. The difference would be surviving. vs. thriving. I'll bet they could live for several years, if fed nothing but endive or romaine.
5. I believe this one to be true, but we'll all be dead before we can Bust or Confirm it. For our purposes here, it can't be answered.
6. Busted. Sadly, I've witnessed this one too.

I agree with Tom on all his responses. Unfortunatley I have seen the first one busted...in Chuuk the locals would flip sea turtles on their backs to kill them, it would take about 3 days for them to die.

---

Here's one: "Tortoises can hear"

 

[NEtorts]

I have seen aldabran totoises swim. Similar to the galaps. Sulcatas cannot swim but they can walk on the bottom with their breath held for up to 10 minutes. (I never tested the time length though).

I have seen a video on you tube of a sulcata swimming across a pool, Human size inground pool!!! i will look for it again! my wading ponds in the torts enclosures are not deep enough for them to swim but I suspect if they float they will swim...........

---

for the life of me i cannot find that video! i know i was not dreaming, anyone want to test the theory with their sulcata? i know i do not!!!

 

[Yvonne G]

One of the things on my adoption list for new folks is to have their in-the-ground-pool fenced so the tortoise can't drown. In order to test that and be sure I was giving out good information, I put my desert tortoise in very deep water and she sunk like a stone and just sat there.

 

[Madkins007]

Emysmeys- I suspect that a tortoise's ability to swim ties in closely to how much chance it would have to in the wild. A forest tortoise that could not swim would be a liability, while it would probably rarely come up for a desert species.

ChadK- which ones do you want covered?

Tom- I agree with the spirit of the answers- but to bust or prove a myth you have to show your work. How do you know how long a tort will survive on its back, etc. Otherwise, this is hearsay or circumstantial.

For example-

Myth: 'A turtle or tortoise can absorb water through the cloaca (and/or skin)."

PROBABLY BUSTED. They actually did a carefully controlled study using intentionally dehydrated Red-ear or Yellow-belly Sliders and found no evidence of cloacal uptake of water. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jez.1055/abstract )

'Partially' busted since the article was on semi-aquatics and not tortoises, and I do not have access to the rest of the article for details.

This link (http://www.mombu.com/reptiles/repti...-alterna-turtle-iguana-snake-106429-last.html) refers to a book by Neil F. Hadley (1975)- "Environmental Physiology of Desert Organisms" in which he apparently makes the claim that no water enters a chelonian's skin or cloaca. I would call it busted on this, but again, I have not read this.

 

[Madkins007]

(Arrrgh! Wrote a great reply and it has vanished! Dang it!)\

Emysemys- I would bet that swimming in torts depends on whether it is a survival skill in their habitat. A forest species that cannot swim is in trouble, but a desert species may never need the skill.

ChadK- any specifically you want to see taken on?

Tom- You know this, and I know this- but where is any real evidence? How do we make it so it is not our word vs. their word?

For example:

Myth: "Tortoises can absorb water through their skin and/or cloaca"

MOSTLY BUSTED. Neil F. Hadley ("Environmental Physiology of Desert Organisms", 1975) states that reptilian skin can pass water vapor out, but does not absorb inwards, and that the cloaca can concentrate water already in the urine, etc., but not absorb it from the outside. (an outline of the findings is at http://www.mombu.com/reptiles/repti...-alterna-turtle-iguana-snake-106429-last.html )

Another study was done on intentionally dehydrated Sliders and used sensitive instruments to determine that there was NO cloacal absorption. The study was able to extrapolate the findings to all 'cryptodire' (hidden eck) turtles, as opposed to the pluerodires (side necks), which use their cloacas differently in some cases. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jez.1055/abstract )

I say MOSTLY busted because none of this was specifically focused on most common pet species of tortoises. However- I think it forms a strong scientific basis that soaks do not help by letting the tort absorb water.

 

[Madkins007]

(Arrrgh! Wrote a great reply and it has vanished! Dang it!)\

Emysemys- I would bet that swimming in torts depends on whether it is a survival skill in their habitat. A forest species that cannot swim is in trouble, but a desert species may never need the skill.

ChadK- any specifically you want to see taken on?

Tom- You know this, and I know this- but where is any real evidence? How do we make it so it is not our word vs. their word?

For example:

Myth: "Tortoises can absorb water through their skin and/or cloaca"

MOSTLY BUSTED. Neil F. Hadley ("Environmental Physiology of Desert Organisms", 1975) states that reptilian skin can pass water vapor out, but does not absorb inwards, and that the cloaca can concentrate water already in the urine, etc., but not absorb it from the outside. (an outline of the findings is at http://www.mombu.com /reptiles/reptiles/t-water-absorption-tortoise-alterna-turtle-iguana-snake-106429-last.html )

Another study was done on intentionally dehydrated Sliders and used sensitive instruments to determine that there was NO cloacal absorption. The study was able to extrapolate the findings to all 'cryptodire' (hidden eck) turtles, as opposed to the pluerodires (side necks), which use their cloacas differently in some cases. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jez.1055/abstract )

I say MOSTLY busted because none of this was specifically focused on most common pet species of tortoises. However- I think it forms a strong scientific basis that soaks do not help by letting the tort absorb water.

 

[Tom]

I have seen aldabran totoises swim. Similar to the galaps. Sulcatas cannot swim but they can walk on the bottom with their breath held for up to 10 minutes. (I never tested the time length though).

I have seen a video on you tube of a sulcata swimming across a pool, Human size inground pool!!! i will look for it again! my wading ponds in the torts enclosures are not deep enough for them to swim but I suspect if they float they will swim...........

---

for the life of me i cannot find that video! i know i was not dreaming, anyone want to test the theory with their sulcata? i know i do not!!!

---

I'll test that one with Daisy tomorrow. I'm really curious. Don't worry, I'll be careful. I've seen her drink for over a minute with her whole head submerged, so I know she won't drown in one second.

 

[chadk]

Swimming torts?

Star:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmDsY0xeWoU
Russian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUVCJUsNt5s&feature=player_embedded
Aldabra
http://www.arkive.org/aldabra-giant-tortoise/geochelone-gigantea/video-06b.html
Yellowfoot?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l48ezTOw1OQ&feature=player_embedded#!
Sulcata:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT2HBScr12w&feature=related

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

1. Busted. Probably days for most species, if not in the summer sun.
2. Probable. Some adults yes. Babies no.
3. Confirmed. Adult Galops can go more than a year. Smaller species, several months, at least. This one I've seen.
4. Unanswerable. The difference would be surviving. vs. thriving. I'll bet they could live for several years, if fed nothing but endive or romaine.
5. I believe this one to be true, but we'll all be dead before we can Bust or Confirm it. For our purposes here, it can't be answered.
6. Busted. Sadly, I've witnessed this one too.

I agree with Tom on all his responses. Unfortunatley I have seen the first one busted...in Chuuk the locals would flip sea turtles on their backs to kill them, it would take about 3 days for them to die.

---

Here's one: "Tortoises can hear"

---

Yers, tortoises can hear...I ring a bell to call mine to dinner.

 

[Madkins007]

Emysemys- I would bet that swimming in torts depends on whether it is a survival skill in their habitat. A forest species that cannot swim is in trouble, but a desert species may never need the skill.

ChadK- any specifically you want to see taken on?

Tom- You know this, and I know this- but where is any real evidence? How do we make it so it is not our word vs. their word?

For example:

Myth: "Tortoises can absorb water through their skin and/or cloaca"

MOSTLY BUSTED. Neil F. Hadley ("Environmental Physiology of Desert Organisms", 1975) states that reptilian skin can pass water vapor out, but does not absorb inwards, and that the cloaca can concentrate water already in the urine, etc., but not absorb it from the outside. (an outline of the findings is at http://www.mombu.com /reptiles/reptiles/t-water-absorption-tortoise-alterna-turtle-iguana-snake-106429-last.html )

Another study was done on intentionally dehydrated Sliders and used sensitive instruments to determine that there was NO cloacal absorption. The study was able to extrapolate the findings to all 'cryptodire' (hidden eck) turtles, as opposed to the pluerodires (side necks), which use their cloacas differently in some cases. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com /doi/10.1002/jez.1055/abstract )

I say MOSTLY busted because none of this was specifically focused on most common pet species of tortoises. However- I think it forms a strong scientific basis that soaks do not help by letting the tort absorb water.

- Terry Allen, Neal, etc.-
Myth: "Tortoises cannot hear"

PARTIALLY BUSTED.

Tortoises have well-developed inner ears and many species are known to hear and respond to certain sounds- mostly noises that simulate hatchlings, and noises made during combat and mating. Desert Tortoises are known to make sub-sonic sounds they can hear for some distance. Other tortoises may be able to do this as well as a function of sensing vibrations. (I'll post links if asked, but don't want to look for them right now.)

Whether they can 'hear' other noises is more 'iffy'. We need to separate sensory input. If a tortoise comes when 'called', is it responding to the vibrations, sights, smells, timing, or sounds? We KNOW they can identify their primary feeder (probably due to a combination of visual, olfactory, and other cues) but claims that they respond to sounds alone would need more solid proof.

A simple test would be to position a tape recorder or something near the habitat, but isolated from vibration; let it sit for a while (both to let them get comfortable with it and to 'erase' any lingering presence from your setting it up); and trigger it remotely so they cannot possibly see or smell you nearby.

When this has been done, there is almost never a response from the tortoises, strongly suggesting that they are not responding to the audible part of the 'calling'.

 

[Candy]

After watching the videos I certainly wouldn't try putting Dale in all of that water. They look like they are floating and trying to get out of it. It's sad to watch people do this to them especially the Sulcatas on the last one. What's with the bubbles? I do agree with Mark on the fact of forest species.

 

[Tom]

- Terry Allen, Neal, etc.-
Myth: "Tortoises cannot hear"

PARTIALLY BUSTED.

Tortoises have well-developed inner ears and many species are known to hear and respond to certain sounds- mostly noises that simulate hatchlings, and noises made during combat and mating. Desert Tortoises are known to make sub-sonic sounds they can hear for some distance. Other tortoises may be able to do this as well as a function of sensing vibrations. (I'll post links if asked, but don't want to look for them right now.)

Whether they can 'hear' other noises is more 'iffy'. We need to separate sensory input. If a tortoise comes when 'called', is it responding to the vibrations, sights, smells, timing, or sounds? We KNOW they can identify their primary feeder (probably due to a combination of visual, olfactory, and other cues) but claims that they respond to sounds alone would need more solid proof.

A simple test would be to position a tape recorder or something near the habitat, but isolated from vibration; let it sit for a while (both to let them get comfortable with it and to 'erase' any lingering presence from your setting it up); and trigger it remotely so they cannot possibly see or smell you nearby.

When this has been done, there is almost never a response from the tortoises, strongly suggesting that they are not responding to the audible part of the 'calling'.

Your test is no good. Sounds played back through manmade devices do not sound the same, or elicit the same responses from animals. I can go out of sight and belt out commands for my dogs and they will respond perfectly all day long. As soon as I try it through a walkie talkie they just sit there and don't seem to hear it. I'm talking about really high quality, very clear sounding walkies that cost $1000 each. It took me three days to train a super smart, experienced, A++ dog to respond to commands through a walkie and I had to do it by using visual and auditory cues with the walkie.

Terry, if you ring the bell at different times of the day and your torts are out of sight, do they come running?

 

[Madkins007]

Your test is no good. Sounds played back through manmade devices do not sound the same, or elicit the same responses from animals. I can go out of sight and belt out commands for my dogs and they will respond perfectly all day long. As soon as I try it through a walkie talkie they just sit there and don't seem to hear it. I'm talking about really high quality, very clear sounding walkies that cost $1000 each. It took me three days to train a super smart, experienced, A++ dog to respond to commands through a walkie and I had to do it by using visual and auditory cues with the walkie.

Terry, if you ring the bell at different times of the day and your torts are out of sight, do they come running?

That is because your dog has been conditioned by MORE than just the sound. The sound of a barking dog on TV perks my dogs ears up- it responds to the stimuli- until it realizes it is not real.

Your suggested test is still using multiple stimuli- no evidence that audio is doing the trick.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Terry, if you ring the bell at different times of the day and your torts are out of sight, do they come running?

Yes, and, interestingly enough, they only pay attention to one particular bell...an old cow-bell I've always used. They've ignored other bells I've tried.

I often sit out between their enclosures, but they only run to their feeding spots when I ring it...other times, they'll wander by, from time to time, to see if there's anything interesting on the "feeding rock", but ringing the cowbell causes them to get the lead out!

Never tried using a recording of their cowbell, so I've no idea if they'd respond to that.

 

[Tom]

Yep! They can swim just fine. She seemed very relaxed, not frantic as I expected. She'd look in the direction she wanted to go and just calmly paddle over there. She stopped paddling and just sat still a few times. I only let her swim for about 45 seconds, but she seemed like she would have been just fine for longer. Come to think of it my Emu did this same thing to me. They can swim like a duck. A really big duck.

 

[chadk]

So the water soaking thing is interesting... I'm wondering if these carrot soaks for box turtles and torts really does anything. Anyone have any proof one way or the other? Same for other types of soaks: baby food, pediolyte(sp?), viatim water, etc...

 

[terryo]

Tom, what great pictures! I can't believe the hands on education we get here.

I never soak any older guys or adults. Hatchlings I feed in a little bit of water....this is for boxies.
I never soaked Pio....He was misted all the time. Also as a little guy, I never saw him sit in the water. He used to stick his head into the dish and drink. Now that is's older he'll sit in the water and stick his head in all the way to get a drink.
Sick one's I would soak.

 

[Yvonne G]

So the water soaking thing is interesting... I'm wondering if these carrot soaks for box turtles and torts really does anything. Anyone have any proof one way or the other? Same for other types of soaks: baby food, pediolyte(sp?), viatim water, etc...

Being a turtle and tortoise rescue, I take in my share of sick and injured turtles and tortoises.

All I can say about the Gerber baby food soaks is...when I get a box turtle with swollen shut eyes that's not eating, and I soak him in the red Gerber baby foods (squash, carrots, sweet potatoes), after three days, the swollen eyes are open and the turtle is ready to eat.

This might not be empirical research, but it IS hands on experience. I don't know how it works, since its been busted that they absorb through their skin, but it works.

 

[Neal]

Myth: If turtles and tortoises eat toxic ooz they will mutate into crime fighting ninjas. I'd be willing to try.