Torty Town

[Neal]

I don't promote this tortoise table box but it's an interesting you tube about tortoises in glass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_vOvvjj25VM

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I had two leopard tortoises die in a 50gallon aquarium 10 years ago from improper ventilation , very sad

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I'm afraid the video was nothing more than a sales pitch...I wouldn't consider it to be anything of educational value.

I am very curious about your two leopard tortoises, I don't wish to disrespect Ball's if he'd rather not have this discussion on his thread, but would you mind posting the details about your experience on another thread? I would be interested to learn how it was determined that improper ventilation caused the tortoises to die.

 

[bigred]

Looks nice but aquariums are not acceptable for a tortoise in any situation.
I read this at http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivarium.htm and have personal experience it's true.

"Tortoises tend to do very badly in confined, poorly ventilated spaces. About the only way to obtain anything like adequate airflow in a typical 'tank' type vivarium is to employ forced-air circulation using fans. Without this, the air rapidly becomes stale and foul. As the tortoise urinates and defecates, humidity within the unit also rises to unacceptable levels (this problem is further exasperated by under-floor heat pads). There are very high occurrences of serious respiratory problems with tortoises kept in this kind of tank." and

Poor ventilation. There is a high incidence of tortoises developing ‘Runny Nose Syndrome’, other respiratory diseases, and shell infections if kept in small fully enclosed type glass or wooden vivarium-style housing. Specifically, the lack of ventilation can result in mould, fungus and similar problems arising. There are ways to improve this situation, including forced-air ventilation, but this does add to complexity and cost.

Lack of temperature gradients. A small enclosed vivarium is likely to be unsuitable for any species that requires a temperature gradient, or differential, to enable self-selection of body temperature. Failure to provide this will have very serious long-term consequences for health. Again, this can be overcome if very large units are employed.

Lack of microclimates. All but the very largest ‘tank’ systems will have inadequate space and temperature gradients (see above) to permit the tortoise to self-select a suitable microclimate. Again, this has important consequences for long-term health and in addition such deprivation will result in unavoidable stress

Hygiene. Enclosed vivarium-style enclosures tend to be difficult to maintain, and pathogens can build up rapidly. This is one of the reasons we see so many sick animals that have a history of being kept in such accommodation.

I also read tortoises can get stressed next to a glass wall because they want to walk through it but can't.

Aquariums are dangerous for tortoises but yours looks really nice why don't you fill it with water and fishes instead?

Actually, aquariums can be some of the best and simplest tortoise enclosures for much of the reasons that this particular article says they are bad.

I'm sure others will chime in with more detailed posts. But by way of experience, I have a relatively small aquarium that I currently house my new hatchlings in. It's a 40 gallon, 36*15*16 with plexiglass on top to restrict airflow. This makes it easier for me to maintain humidity and heat where I want it to be. Even in this size of an enclosure that is almost completely sealed, I am able to maintain a high humid micro climate and heat gradients appropriate for the type of tortoises I am keeping. In the past I have placed paper around the enclosure to discourage the tortoises from rubbing up against the glass, but I havn't for several years...because I've never seen them do anything like that. While I'm sure some do, I don't think it's the norm.

Many other keepers have the same type of set up, and there has yet to be any case of disease or RNS that is directly correlated with keeping them in this sort of set up that I have heard of.

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Balls - I really like your enclosure. The only thing I would do differently is cover the open ends so that it's easier to maintain the heat and humidity. But, I'm in the desert so that would just be my own preference. I like seeing all that good fresh food in there for him.

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Going to have to agree with Neal on this one. I keep hatchlings in a setup like Neal is talking about to maintain heat and humidity

 

[Tom]

papayapa, That info is old and outdated. It was wrong when they wrote it and its wrong now. Many of us on this forum have been using glass tanks for decades and have never experienced any of those issues. In fact, as Neal pointed out, the tall sides and reduced airflow help to create the beneficial conditions that our captive baby tortoises need. I'm making such a point of this because the mis-information that you are helping to spread is very detrimental to tortoises and it is part of the reason we have so many horribly disfigured leopard and sulcata tortoises.

The man whose thread you posted this on lives in the area that his chosen species comes from. I should think that he has a better idea of what his tortoise needs and what the wild tortoises in his area would experience than any of us on the other side of the world.

 

[TortoiseWorld]

I don't promote this tortoise table box but it's an interesting you tube about tortoises in glass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_vOvvjj25VM

---

I had two leopard tortoises die in a 50gallon aquarium 10 years ago from improper ventilation , very sad

---

I'm afraid the video was nothing more than a sales pitch...I wouldn't consider it to be anything of educational value.

I am very curious about your two leopard tortoises, I don't wish to disrespect Ball's if he'd rather not have this discussion on his thread, but would you mind posting the details about your experience on another thread? I would be interested to learn how it was determined that improper ventilation caused the tortoises to die.

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I did not put them inside the aquarium, I was out of town. We had the leopard tortoises outside grazing and my mother in law thought they would get lost and didn't want to be responsible so she picked them up and put them in a 50 gallon aquarium we had on the side of our house, it was a very warm day and they dies in only a few hours from over heating.

Yes, it's not the same situation as in Balls aquarium,
and yes the video was a bit cheesy but there are true issues with aquariums.
In fact while this discussion is going on a Star breeder I've been communicating with just emailed me about using aquariums, he wrote "do not use glass aquarium for my babies because glass aquarium can not hold up temperature constantly. Glass aquarium gets cold easily in the winter and gets hot quickly in the summer. So I do not recommend glass aquarium. Besides, baby tortoise will get stress out if they can not have their own privacy hide place in the cage. The only good thing about glass aquarium is easy for us to see through the cage.."

For me I would never put a tortoise in an Aquarium, how would you like to live inside an aquarium with poop pee and food decomposition, I'm a plumber by trade and sewer gases are dangerous to humans "Improper plumbing can result in the introduction of pathogenic organisms into drinking water and the escape of toxic gases into the environment. These outcomes have the potential of leading to disease and adverse health effects." Could also happen to a tortoise.

 

[Neal]

I did not put them inside the aquarium, I was out of town. We had the leopard tortoises outside grazing and my mother in law thought they would get lost and didn't want to be responsible so she picked them up and put them in a 50 gallon aquarium we had on the side of our house, it was a very warm day and they dies in only a few hours from over heating.

Yes, it's not the same situation as in Balls aquarium,
and yes the video was a bit cheesy but there are true issues with aquariums.
In fact while this discussion is going on a Star breeder I've been communicating with just emailed me about using aquariums, he wrote "do not use glass aquarium for my babies because glass aquarium can not hold up temperature constantly. Glass aquarium gets cold easily in the winter and gets hot quickly in the summer. So I do not recommend glass aquarium. Besides, baby tortoise will get stress out if they can not have their own privacy hide place in the cage. The only good thing about glass aquarium is easy for us to see through the cage.."

For me I would never put a tortoise in an Aquarium, how would you like to live inside an aquarium with poop pee and food decomposition, I'm a plumber by trade and sewer gases are dangerous to humans "Improper plumbing can result in the introduction of pathogenic organisms into drinking water and the escape of toxic gases into the environment. These outcomes have the potential of leading to disease and adverse health effects." Could also happen to a tortoise.

It doesn't sound like the problem was the glass aquarium by itself. More like the problem was the glass aquarium outside. That is a good way to cook a tortoise (or anything for that matter).

I have found glass aquariums to hold temperatures quite well inside a typical temperature controlled house. If you have it somewhere where the temperature fluctuates extremely, it wouldn't be a good idea to use an aquarium...or anything else for that matter. Sure, you could build something that is more efficient with some insulation and other such materials, but I doubt the tortoise table in the video would do a better job of maintaining heat compared to a closed top aquarium.

I don't understand how an aquarium would be any more unsanitary than any other sort of set up if you are not spot cleaning poop.

I am not trying to beat up on you here or anything, as Tom pointed out, there are some of us who believe that the information regarding glass aquariums as unsuitable for tortoises is not just outdated, but completely wrong. Here's a thread I think you should at least read through. Tom did a good job of explaining what I am attempting to here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-32333.html#axzz2E3sHJUIo

 

[Baoh]

I like your setup.

 

[TortoiseBoy1999]

I'm sorry, but I would have to also say that I think aquarium's can be very efficient tortoise terrarium's

 

[diaboliqueturtle]

Beautiful enclosure and a happy looking tort

 

[Balls]

Shoo ok I'll try to reply to everyone here..

Balls - I really like your enclosure. The only thing I would do differently is cover the open ends so that it's easier to maintain the heat and humidity. But, I'm in the desert so that would just be my own preference. I like seeing all that good fresh food in there for him.

About the humidity and heat in the tank... it is a large tank so there is enough of a temp difference between both ends. I have 2 thermometers, 1 by the basking spot, and 1 on the cold end. The "cold" end is pretty much ambient temp.. infact 80% of the day he is lying directly in the basking spot with his parts out lapping up the heat. I agree you cant put it outside directly in the sun.

At the moment the humidity is 71%.. it can easily go over 80 or 90.. that is a big difference as in California for example it can be 5% and then increasing the humidity is much more important obviously.

Lack of microclimates. All but the very largest ‘tank’ systems will have inadequate space and temperature gradients (see above) to permit the tortoise to self-select a suitable microclimate. Again, this has important consequences for long-term health and in addition such deprivation will result in unavoidable stress

The other big difference to American homes is we do not have central heating and our homes are mostly not temprature controlled. It gets very hot and humid here in summer so we have airconditioning in the summer.. why I talk about this is your tanks and enclosures have less of a temprature variance over the tank I would think? As I said I am monitering the temps and he is easyily able to adjust how far away he is from the heat..

I'm a plumber by trade and sewer gases are dangerous to humans "Improper plumbing can result in the introduction of pathogenic organisms into drinking water and the escape of toxic gases into the environment. These outcomes have the potential of leading to disease and adverse health effects." Could also happen to a tortoise.

I hear what you are saying, I think mabye its more of an issue with artificial or other substrate.. to be honest I looked for poo last night and couldnt see any in the tank.. hopefully its compost for his plants
Its not like hes walking around in poo.. his tank is like 100x larger than him and there is plenty space that there are areas he hardly ever goes.

Besides, baby tortoise will get stress out if they can not have their own privacy hide place in the cage. The only good thing about glass aquarium is easy for us to see through the cage.."

He has a hide and he always sleeps in it. I have since buried it more so he has more privacy and is more cosy. I dont think hes stressed with looking out.. I think because theres enough to occupy him in the tank so he is usually wandering around nibbling on stuff.

I'll admit Im new to keeping tortoises, I did read the article that papayapa posted before I bought the aquarium.. not to diss you but I also read articles and forum posts that it is rubbish too so I have tried to educate myself about this..

I do agree I should introduce some more airflow into the tank mabye a small fan or something, its also good to stimulate the plants.. it is by an open area there are 2 open windows but a fan will bring in fresh air into the tank... I'll look into this asap.

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in small fully enclosed type glass or wooden vivarium-style housing. Specifically, the lack of ventilation can result in mould, fungus and similar problems arising. There are ways to improve this situation,

Hygiene. Enclosed vivarium-style enclosures tend to be difficult to maintain, and pathogens can build up rapidly. This is one of the reasons we see so many sick animals that have a history of being kept in such accommodation.

I dont have a lid on it the top is always open thats not enclosed is it

 

[TortoiseWorld]

papayapa, That info is old and outdated. It was wrong when they wrote it and its wrong now. Many of us on this forum have been using glass tanks for decades and have never experienced any of those issues. In fact, as Neal pointed out, the tall sides and reduced airflow help to create the beneficial conditions that our captive baby tortoises need. I'm making such a point of this because the mis-information that you are helping to spread is very detrimental to tortoises and it is part of the reason we have so many horribly disfigured leopard and sulcata tortoises.

The man whose thread you posted this on lives in the area that his chosen species comes from. I should think that he has a better idea of what his tortoise needs and what the wild tortoises in his area would experience than any of us on the other side of the world.

Dear Tom,
that's very presumptuous just because a person lives in a certain climate it makes them an authority on tortoise habitat.
I also kindly disagree with your comment about about what I wrote is incorrect information and is the reason for injured animals? Your kidding right?
Actually everyone who have been traumatizing your pets (except fish) by forcing them inside a fish tank have been lucky so far that your charge has not become ill...yet.

I have a customer and acquaintance who is an respected authority exotic animal vet Dr. Scott McDonald Illinois who also owns a tortoise and I will gladly contact him this week about this topic.

In the mean time here is just a few online resources I've just found in a few minutes that support my common sense thinking that only fish belong in a fish tank.

http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/vetscorner/hatchling
and
http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/vetscorner/respiratory
and
http://animal-world.com/encyclo/reptiles/tortoises/GreekTortoise.php
and
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111115143047AAaVYre
and
http://www.donsdeserttortoises.com/2.html
and
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090916142525AAI4jRK
and
http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatr...riums-are-not-suitable-tortoise-homes-part-1/
and
http://exoticpets.about.com/od/tortoises/qt/tortoiseindoors.htm
and
http://jacquiscaptivebredtortoises.com/hermans_habitat
and
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-28729.html#axzz2E3lqf966
and
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Importance-of-a-Tortoise-House&id=6537487
and
http://www.tortoisefacts.com/tortoise-house/the-ideal-tortoise-house-for-your-pet
and
http://www.hermann-tortoise.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=1240
and
http://www.barrieranimalcareclinic.co.uk/epv/chelonia/Horsfield Tortoises.pdf
and
http://russiantortoisepictures.com/forum/index.php?topic=5217.0
and
http://www.thetortoiselady.com/page5.htm
and
http://www.tortoisefacts.com/tortoise-house/your-tortoise-needs-the-proper-tortoise-house
and
http://voices.yahoo.com/caring-red-foot-tortoises-6174608.html
and
http://www.tortoise-protection-group.org.uk/site/130.asp?tID=1750
and
http://exoticrescueforum.forumotion.com/t235-hermanns-tortoise-caresheet
and
http://russiantortoise.org/care_print.htm
and
http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatr...sefield’s-tortoise-an-ideal-“first-tortoise”/
and
http://russiantortoisepictures.com/forum/index.php/topic,4013.0.html
and
http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080127154309AAW222p
and
http://www.repticzone.com/forums/Tortoises/messages/1845805.html
and
http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/forum/archive/index.php/t-186.html
and
http://www.hollyhousevets.co.uk/downloads/tortoise-care-plan.pdf
and
http://www.repticzone.com/forums/Turtles-Tortoises/messages/987530.html
and
http://www.barrieranimalcareclinic.co.uk/epv/chelonia/Sulcata tortoises.pdf
and
http://www.happyhutch.co.uk/tortoises/96
and
http://www.tlady.clara.net/TortGuide/Guide.PDF
and
http://www.lotsforpets.co.uk/faqs

View attachment 33262

 

[Millerlite]

I like it. Looks good. I use a tank as well it's bigger then most people's toetoise tables. My toetoises are better in the tank then in the table I had they seemsot happier

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Here is a quick shot of mine it's 72 inches by 24 inches by 17 inches

 

[Balls]

Dear Tom,
that's very presumptuous just because a person lives in a certain climate it makes them an authority on tortoise habitat.

I agree.. as I said I'm a beginner..

I also kindly disagree with your comment about about what I wrote is incorrect information and is the reason for injured animals? Your kidding right?
Actually everyone who have been traumatizing your pets (except fish) by forcing them inside a fish tank have been lucky so far that your charge has not become ill...yet.

I have a customer and acquaintance who is an respected authority exotic animal vet Dr. Scott McDonald Illinois who also owns a tortoise and I will gladly contact him this week about this topic.

I think thats harsh.. I think this is about to become a hot topic on here..

In the mean time here is just a few online resources I've just found in a few minutes that support my common sense thinking that only fish belong in a fish tank.

I can Google and copy and paste a similar amount of webpages saying you should put your tortoises in tanks..

I see the same issues with glass tanks regurgitated over and over again on all of these websites..you are not reading my views how these issues are not relevent to our tank setups?

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Poor ventilation....in small fully enclosed type glass or wooden vivarium-style housing...

Its not small neither fully enclosed. As mentioned before a fan could be added for further ventilation.

Lack of temperature gradients. ..A small enclosed vivarium is likely to be unsuitable for any species that requires a temperature gradient, or differential, to enable self-selection of body temperature. Failure to provide this will have very serious long-term consequences for health.

There is a big temperate gradient from ambient temp to a warm basking spot. I can show you photos of the temp difference. In a small tank I can agree there will be no variation of temp as it will be basically just a basking spot on the whole tank. Infact the basking temp is very focused in a tiny % area of the whole tank.

Lack of microclimates. All but the very largest ‘tank’ systems will have inadequate space and temperature gradients to permit the tortoise to self-select a suitable microclimate. Again, this has important consequences for long-term health and in addition such deprivation will result in unavoidable stress

See above..I see no reason to repeat arguments.

Lack of “interest” and boredom. Tortoises that are kept in small enclosed "tanks" tend to exhibit lethargy (inactivity) and other unnatural behaviour patterns. By contrast, tortoises in suitable outdoor enclosures, or suitably large and well-designed indoor enclosures, will be much more alert and active.

I can assure you he is very active and has plenty of stimulation. Infact I would actually argue there is more to interest him inside the tank than an outdoor enclosure for a reptile of his size.

Hygiene issues. Vivarium-style enclosures tend to be difficult to maintain, and pathogens can build up rapidly. This is one of the reasons reptile vets see so many sick animals that have a history of being kept in such accommodation.

Yes true but for a small animal that hardly defecates (read up on that one if you dont agree) I dont think this is a relative point for such a large tank. Most of the time he defecates when being soaked anyway. I dont think one tiny tortoise poo is going to make a difference in a huge tank with a mini ecosystem. More compost

Cost. Vivarium and glass “fish tank” enclosures are extremely costly per square inch of usable space for a tortoise. Tortoises only need sides that are high enough to prevent escape. Fish tanks in particular are designed to provide maximum cubic capacity, not maximum floor area (which is what really matters to a tortoise). Spend the available budget creating as much FLOOR AREA as possible.

I agree with this in principal. However for his size I think the floor area is adequete for quite some time.

If you can raise and debate any of the points against keeping them in tanks please I'd like to hear what you vet friend says too. As I said these are my own logical arguments against the ton of people that have writen 99% similar sounding articles..

 

[arotester]

wow one of the best enclosures i have seen minus bulb
by the way i have got the exact same sprayer.

 

[Neal]

Papayapa - I only viewed a small handful of your links, but I wasn't able to find any sort of substantive information or even any personal experiences that would support the opinions on the pages you linked. Like Balls said, It appears to be nothing more than regurgitated misinformation...which is a problem, because when glass aquariums are set up adequately, they really do make for some of the best enclosures you can house a tortoise besides something home made or large plastic containers. That being said, I think the arguments do hold some truth if the aquarium were too small. As with any sort of housing, size needs should be considered and the largest accommodations as possible should be provided. But, it seems like all of the links are trying to paint a picture of an adult tortoise inside a 10 gallon tank, much like from the sales pitch video. I don't think anyone would argue that that is suitable for a tortoise.

I'm really not sure where these arguments against glass aquariums originated from. Like most textbook tortoise husbandry practices, it seems as though it came from some prehistoric cesspool ages ago. Anyone who knows me, knows I take a very skeptical approach with the care I provide my tortoises. Hell, I'm still not 100% behind the "humidity thing"...anyway, I am genuinely interested in anything you could provide to support your opinion by way of case study or even personal experiences. I've searched and searched, but have never been able to identify any of the issues described in the links you shared as being directly linked to housing a tortoise in a glass aquarium. There always seems to be some other weakness in the husbandry, or some other consideration (like your tortoises being kept in a glass aquarium in the outdoors) that would more likely explain the issues that were observed. If you have anything, I am all ears.

 

[Balls]

Good reply Neal thank you.

Papayapa, if its on the internet it must be true.

Like I said I'm all ears (errr eyes?) if you bring a substantial argument?

 

[luvpetz27]

Hi there

U have a great enclosure!

 

[Nami The tortoise]

WOW this is amazing, glad to see people taking such good care of their pets!

 

[TortoiseWorld]

Balls,
I don't believe anything I read online without doing my homework on it. I am still doing research on this enclosure topic it could take days, weeks, years to really know the best set up for a specific species. I have a lot to learn, on many other tortoise topics too like, nutrition, toxic plants, pellets, water hydration, temperatures, light, and tons more, it's really a life long process. I never knew their was so much to learn about regarding tortoises. Tortoises live a very long time and come from some very exotic climates and eat different food sources so I guess that's why the success of a thriving healthy tort depends on correct care. Their not like cats dogs and fish, tortoises are more dependent on humans for their health and safety.

Invest your time to cross reference any info you find or advice you get. Just because someone says he or she is an expert or even some exotic animal vets or a veteran members of this tortoiseforum.org doesn't mean their advice, info or instructions are best for your situation including a novice beginner like me.

 

[BowandWalter]

That's a beautiful tank! I envy people who's tortoises aren't at the destroy all plant life in 5 minutes stage, just wait till he's bigger

 

[Tom]

Papayapa,

I commend your open mindedness and I do hope you continue to research and learn. I hope the thousands of pics and success stories on this forum will be part of your research. The people you are arguing with on this topic have already spent days, weeks and years not only researching this topic, but also putting the different theories into practice. Sometimes failing, sometimes succeeding, but learning all along the way. Many of us are very critical thinkers. Neal for example has argued his theories with me many times, and he never jumps on any bandwagon without trying out what ever theory is being argued for himself with his own tortoises. We aren't a bunch of internet yahoos just spouting off unfounded non-sense.

There are a lot of myths associated with tortoises and many of us are trying very hard to undo some of these long standing errors in judgment and incorrect speculation. A few examples of incorrect info that is potentially damaging to tortoises:
1. Tortoises get all the water they need from their food.
2. Sulcatas and leopards are desert species.
3. Sulcatas aestivate and eat almost nothing for nine months of the year in the wild.
4. All species should be eating lots of grass.
5. Protein causes pyramiding.
6. Fast growth causes pyramiding.
7. Slow growth prevents pyramiding.
8. Tortoises like to have a buddy.

.... there are lots more. Here is another problematic way of thinking: Tortoises should be housed as "naturally" as possible. Sounds great, BUT, for most species NO ONE in the whole world knows exactly what is "natural" for hatchlings. Almost no study has been done. No one knows where the hatchlings go, what they do, what they eat, how much they drink, which microclimates they hang out in and for how long, etc... So an attempt at a natural set up for a small leopard or sulcata in a typical North American backyard frequently does not end with good results.

Here's another one: Call any reptile vet and ask them what causes pyramiding. Almost all of them will tell you excess protein, fast growth, and/or too much food. I can give you dozens of examples just from this forum that prove that assertion false. In fact there was an Austrian study done in 2003 that attempted to prove that protein does cause pyramiding and they inadvertently proved that it does not and jthat, in fact, humidity prevents it. Yet the incorrect myth still persists. The community here at tortoise forum prides itself on NOT believing everything we read on the Internet, and instead seeing for ourselves with many examples of what does and what does not work. I personally welcome you to the fold. Never stop being a critical thinker. Look around the pics and posts on this forum and you will see for yourself that tortoises do great in glass tanks and closed chambers with minimal ventilation. Get your own babies, raise them the way you think is best and share the results with us. We will all learn one way or the other.