...and THAT is the reason I am such a big fan of TFO! Open Minds and creative solutions.....well said Tom!
Torty Town
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...and THAT is the reason I am such a big fan of TFO! Open Minds and creative solutions.....well said Tom!
Balls said:Hi everyone
This is my little tortoises home
You cant eat that..
Thanks for looking
Just so you know, after looking at your pics, I grabbed a rag and windex and cleaned my glass enclosure. You put me to shame, man! Well done
* by windex I mean water and vinegar, of course*
papayapa said:
I guess Im a bit close minded, I didnt read any of your links. A bit tired long day at work. I didnt read them because I know what has worked for me through years of experience. I hatched hundreds of redfoot hatchlings and kept them in a glass aquarium with alot of DAILY care. I can honestly say I have never had a hatchling die or get sick in any way. If I ever had a problem, or the same problem over and over baecause the way they were kept I would have stopped a long time ago. As others have stated cleaning up poop and changing bedding when needed prevents those problems. It actually works great for redfoot hatchligs
Hi Tom, Thank you for the kind words.
Funny thing I was just writing this email to someone about pyramiding in Sri Lankan Stars:
I looked at many pics of pyramiding on other tortoise species and it looks like the top of their shells where the pyramiding is, was collapsed and not symmetrical and getting flat on the top. They also looked strange like in a sick way. But the Sri lankans stars looked vibrant and healthy with nice symmetrical dome shape pyramids.
My theory is that pyramiding on a sri lankan star is completely unrelated to pyramiding on unhealthy tortoises of any species, and that the pyramiding on a healthy sri lankan star is completely related to good (not bad ) genetics that formed over thousands of years.
I read: in Sri Lanka the most distinguishing feature of a star tortoises habitat is its dryness. HABITAT: Semi-arid, thorny and grassland habitats. It is also found in some regions with higher levels of precipitation, including areas that have monsoon seasons. The Indian star tortoise has a higher tolerance for water than any other tortoise in its genus, but is sensitive to long periods of high humidity.
I wonder if this pyramiding on Sri Lankan Stars developed as a defense mechanism against predators. Sri Lankan people feast on Star tortoises so if they taste good then there would be meat eating animals and birds of prey trying to hunt them. It is said the star patterns resemble grasses and that they are perfectly hidden in the tall grasses. So in the dry season there would be less long grasses causing more dangers for Stars, so maybe the Stars genetics for pyramiding formed as a need for protection against predators, the higher the pyramiding points the more the Stars look like tall grasses and not a ordinary turtle easy meal.
I think the pyramids on healthy Stars are part of Gods design and should be celebrated.
Some information about pyramiding that you may already know.
Mader, MS, DVM, DABVP) and mentions that "a few tortoise species grow naturally conical scutes, mimicking pyramiding." For these species, e.g. Geochelone elegans, this type of carapace is normal.
about the Indian Star tortoise: "... develop quite pronounced horny pyramids on the individual scutes in advanced age. This is not a sign of illness."
(now Geochelone elegans), the Starred Tortoise: "In many adult specimens the single plates are more or less elevated into prominent humps, the height of which may be from half an inch to an inch. This peculiar form is so frequently found, that we cannot consider it as a monstrosity, but rather as an indication of very great age."
2006, Germany), slightly raised, pyramidal scutes are a naturally occurring phenomen within all populations of G. elegans. It is not necessarily a sign of poor nutrition.
Dr. Chris Tabaka and Darrell Senneke of WCT (2003, US) write that Indian Star tortoises may have smooth or bumpy carapaces. The reason for this natural pyramiding (conical scutes) is unknown, but the raised scutes do make it easier for the tortoise to right itself on flat ground when it becomes overturned. They further state: "If higher domed and bumpier Star tortoises had a greater survival rate because of this, the tendency to a pyramided appearance would be selected for in future generations."
In a 2008 RFUK forum post, Andy Highfield (Tortoise Trust, UK) writes that he has seen hundreds of x-rays of pyramided tortoise shells, and he's never seen a pyramided tortoise that didn't have metabolic bone disease. Having said that, he states that this excludes Indian Star tortoises and African starred tortoises where conical scute formation is genetic. He then writes: "Despite the 'pyramid' or tent-like structure of the vertebral scutes on these, the bone density is entirely normal and no lesions are present."
Preventing pyramiding
So far, nobody seems to know for sure how to best prevent pyramiding in captive-bred and -raised tortoises. However, many experienced tortoise keepers believe adequate humidity and hydration as babies and youngsters may be the answer. Higher ambient humidity, frequent drinking, regular soaks, warm mistings, and humid hides are beneficial, especially during the first 1-2 years.
Also, adequate sunshine, a suitable diet (enough fiber, nutrients, calcium etc.), sufficient exercise, and low-stress environment are important for tortoises' general health.
I think it would take a very long time to breed out the genetic pyramiding in healthy Stars.
I hope my future happy healthy Sri Lankan Star grows nice shaped pyramid points in a high dome shape, I think they look cool on the big Sri Lankan Stars, all other tortoises need not apply
View attachment 33346
Funny thing I was just writing this email to someone about pyramiding in Sri Lankan Stars:
I looked at many pics of pyramiding on other tortoise species and it looks like the top of their shells where the pyramiding is, was collapsed and not symmetrical and getting flat on the top. They also looked strange like in a sick way. But the Sri lankans stars looked vibrant and healthy with nice symmetrical dome shape pyramids.
My theory is that pyramiding on a sri lankan star is completely unrelated to pyramiding on unhealthy tortoises of any species, and that the pyramiding on a healthy sri lankan star is completely related to good (not bad ) genetics that formed over thousands of years.
I read: in Sri Lanka the most distinguishing feature of a star tortoises habitat is its dryness. HABITAT: Semi-arid, thorny and grassland habitats. It is also found in some regions with higher levels of precipitation, including areas that have monsoon seasons. The Indian star tortoise has a higher tolerance for water than any other tortoise in its genus, but is sensitive to long periods of high humidity.
I wonder if this pyramiding on Sri Lankan Stars developed as a defense mechanism against predators. Sri Lankan people feast on Star tortoises so if they taste good then there would be meat eating animals and birds of prey trying to hunt them. It is said the star patterns resemble grasses and that they are perfectly hidden in the tall grasses. So in the dry season there would be less long grasses causing more dangers for Stars, so maybe the Stars genetics for pyramiding formed as a need for protection against predators, the higher the pyramiding points the more the Stars look like tall grasses and not a ordinary turtle easy meal.
I think the pyramids on healthy Stars are part of Gods design and should be celebrated.
Some information about pyramiding that you may already know.
Mader, MS, DVM, DABVP) and mentions that "a few tortoise species grow naturally conical scutes, mimicking pyramiding." For these species, e.g. Geochelone elegans, this type of carapace is normal.
about the Indian Star tortoise: "... develop quite pronounced horny pyramids on the individual scutes in advanced age. This is not a sign of illness."
(now Geochelone elegans), the Starred Tortoise: "In many adult specimens the single plates are more or less elevated into prominent humps, the height of which may be from half an inch to an inch. This peculiar form is so frequently found, that we cannot consider it as a monstrosity, but rather as an indication of very great age."
2006, Germany), slightly raised, pyramidal scutes are a naturally occurring phenomen within all populations of G. elegans. It is not necessarily a sign of poor nutrition.
Dr. Chris Tabaka and Darrell Senneke of WCT (2003, US) write that Indian Star tortoises may have smooth or bumpy carapaces. The reason for this natural pyramiding (conical scutes) is unknown, but the raised scutes do make it easier for the tortoise to right itself on flat ground when it becomes overturned. They further state: "If higher domed and bumpier Star tortoises had a greater survival rate because of this, the tendency to a pyramided appearance would be selected for in future generations."
In a 2008 RFUK forum post, Andy Highfield (Tortoise Trust, UK) writes that he has seen hundreds of x-rays of pyramided tortoise shells, and he's never seen a pyramided tortoise that didn't have metabolic bone disease. Having said that, he states that this excludes Indian Star tortoises and African starred tortoises where conical scute formation is genetic. He then writes: "Despite the 'pyramid' or tent-like structure of the vertebral scutes on these, the bone density is entirely normal and no lesions are present."
Preventing pyramiding
So far, nobody seems to know for sure how to best prevent pyramiding in captive-bred and -raised tortoises. However, many experienced tortoise keepers believe adequate humidity and hydration as babies and youngsters may be the answer. Higher ambient humidity, frequent drinking, regular soaks, warm mistings, and humid hides are beneficial, especially during the first 1-2 years.
Also, adequate sunshine, a suitable diet (enough fiber, nutrients, calcium etc.), sufficient exercise, and low-stress environment are important for tortoises' general health.
I think it would take a very long time to breed out the genetic pyramiding in healthy Stars.
I hope my future happy healthy Sri Lankan Star grows nice shaped pyramid points in a high dome shape, I think they look cool on the big Sri Lankan Stars, all other tortoises need not apply
View attachment 33346
Last edited by a moderator:
BowandWalter said:That's a beautiful tank! I envy people who's tortoises aren't at the destroy all plant life in 5 minutes stage, just wait till he's bigger
Thanks to everyone of you for the compliments
He does tend to destroy the plants.. he eats all the leaves off or tramples them.. some have stood up well to him but the one side is getting quite barren where he's eaten.. I'm growing some things outside now too so I can keep replacing hopefully and some of the seeds have started sprouting nicely.
Some updates..
Feeding from my hand:
From this plant which he chomped up earlier today.. this thing was about 4 times the size when I first planted it..
Part of the devestation.. this plant has been completely eaten up..
I had to get a new one.. note how it looks before!!
Out of 9 portlucca flowers there are none left.. the 2 remaining ones look like this:
A patch of carrots sprouting up nicely. I think I planted them too close together?
Growing hibiscus inside.. he loves these so much I've got 2 big bushes in the garden thats bare of flowers now.. I have to take from the neighbours bushes..
Anytime he will eat these even if hes stuffed.. put this down anywhere and he will literally charge over for it..
Nom nom
All gone
Petunia flowers and some other plants thriving
Chilling in the bushes
He lives 100% off the plants grown naturally in that tank. I do not feed him anything else (other than flowers) such as commercial greens, fruits or pellets. Occasionally I do also feed him weeds from the garden.
I'll be planting in more soon and making some changes
Thanks for looking
I really enjoy seeing tortoises in well planted enclosures, be it inside or not. Your doing a great job!
papayapa said:
Thank you Tom!
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http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-60691.html
Really cool thread.
Balls, I am openly exploiting the quick huge 'views' you are getting to draw attention to another thread. I don't a 'great . . . of fire' handle and I don't find debate in pyramiding. It occurs in most all tortoises somewhere in nature, much more in some than others. But some that are often pyramided, also have wild cohorts bowling ball smooth. That's the key to your handle, hugh, you are not pyramided, you are smooth as balls, I get it now.
Really cool thread.
Balls, I am openly exploiting the quick huge 'views' you are getting to draw attention to another thread. I don't a 'great . . . of fire' handle and I don't find debate in pyramiding. It occurs in most all tortoises somewhere in nature, much more in some than others. But some that are often pyramided, also have wild cohorts bowling ball smooth. That's the key to your handle, hugh, you are not pyramided, you are smooth as balls, I get it now.
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