UVB not a necessity???

[Millerlite]

I already said i think its necessary and most people are making it as if they cant survive without the UVB bulb. which they can.

 

[nrfitchett4]

but red foot tortoise get a lot more protein than most other torts right? and with that protein is usually vitamin d. (redfoots are the ones that eat cat food, right?).
So I guess for the starter tort keepers, a uvb bulb would probably be a good investment to keep their torts as healthy as possible. Just make sure they have hides to get out of the "sun".

 

[-EJ]

No... they don't. They get as much animal matter as any tortoise.

but red foot tortoise get a lot more protein than most other torts right? and with that protein is usually vitamin d. (redfoots are the ones that eat cat food, right?).
So I guess for the starter tort keepers, a uvb bulb would probably be a good investment to keep their torts as healthy as possible. Just make sure they have hides to get out of the "sun".

 

[nrfitchett4]

No... they don't. They get as much animal matter as any tortoise.

but red foot tortoise get a lot more protein than most other torts right? and with that protein is usually vitamin d. (redfoots are the ones that eat cat food, right?).
So I guess for the starter tort keepers, a uvb bulb would probably be a good investment to keep their torts as healthy as possible. Just make sure they have hides to get out of the "sun".

So they get as much as by baby sulcata?

 

[-EJ]

Ironic that you should pic a perfect well documented example.

No... they don't. They get as much animal matter as any tortoise.

but red foot tortoise get a lot more protein than most other torts right? and with that protein is usually vitamin d. (redfoots are the ones that eat cat food, right?).
So I guess for the starter tort keepers, a uvb bulb would probably be a good investment to keep their torts as healthy as possible. Just make sure they have hides to get out of the "sun".

So they get as much as by baby sulcata?

 

[nrfitchett4]

my point being that an exclusively veggie diet doesn't lend itself to much dietary d3 in the wild.

 

[-EJ]

Another important point... these animals are not in the wild... they are pets. In order to maintain those pets compromises have to be made.

The bulb itself is an artificial source that is supposed to help in the metabolism of calcium... so... why not use supplements as an alternative?

my point being that an exclusively veggie diet doesn't lend itself to much dietary d3 in the wild.

 

[Madkins007]

No... they don't. They get as much animal matter as any tortoise.

I know that most wild tortoises eat some insects, carrion, etc., and I know that Red-foots are documented to eat about 10-15% proteins in the wild.

What I am wondering is are there documented levels of 'wild meat-eating' for the various 'grassland' species, and if so, what are they?

(And please, this is not meant to be argumentative or anything. I am just curious. I've done a ton of research on Red-foots, and not nearly as much on grasslanders.)

 

[Yvonne G]

I watched my desert tortoise eat a dead lizard once.

Yvonne

 

[Macheteslaststep]

My leopards try to shove their heads in my mouth after I eat steak or chicken, does that count? If not I have seen them both attack insects out in the yard. And I know that they have been known to eat carrion in the wild.

Sara

 

[chadk]

UVB is necessary to all reptiles, and its healthy for them, the only thing i argue is, do they need artificial UVB. Like i said before many people dont use the bulbs and have nice looking tortoises. Dont confuse this with never having UVB because most let theres have natural sun.

All reptiles? What about many snakes and lizards that only come out at night?

 

[nrfitchett4]

Reptiles that are primarily veggie eaters need sunlight/uvb. Iguanas, desert type tort's. There's not much dietary d3 in veggies and from what I've read about iguanas they don't thing that igs can process dietary d3.

 

[-EJ]

Huge... I mean... really huge assumption... misconception.

You really need to to a little more research.

Both of the animals mentioned... do eat carrion and whole critters.

Reptiles that are primarily veggie eaters need sunlight/uvb. Iguanas, desert type tort's. There's not much dietary d3 in veggies and from what I've read about iguanas they don't thing that igs can process dietary d3.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Several years ago I had a yearling Gopherus agassizii and I watched her one summer spot a bluebelly who was sunning on the fence and that little tortoise ran over and snatched that lizard up and ate it all. How did a small tort like that know the lizard was eatable???

 

[nrfitchett4]

Huge... I mean... really huge assumption... misconception.

You really need to to a little more research.

Both of the animals mentioned... do eat carrion and whole critters.

Reptiles that are primarily veggie eaters need sunlight/uvb. Iguanas, desert type tort's. There's not much dietary d3 in veggies and from what I've read about iguanas they don't thing that igs can process dietary d3.

I eat mcdonalds. doesn't mean it won't kill me in the long run.

---

makes me also wonder why the life spans of igs in capitivity used to be shorter than in the wild. Probably nothing to do with all the dog and cat food they were fed (and iceburg lettuce for that matter).

 

[Yvonne G]

I eat mcdonalds. doesn't mean it won't kill me in the long run.

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makes me also wonder why the life spans of igs in capitivity used to be shorter than in the wild. Probably nothing to do with all the dog and cat food they were fed (and iceburg lettuce for that matter).

---

I believe the subject matter was D3, not bad stuff we eat. EJ's point was that the animals you previously mentioned DID get some D3 from some of the food they were eating.

Yvonne

 

[Lynn DeVries]

I took 1.3 Russian Tortoises and set them up indoors with only Incandescent Lighting for light and warmth. I fed them ONLY Commercially prepared Dry Iguana food (Zeiglers) . They always had access too drinking water. The adults lived, bred and Laid eggs. The eggs hatched and I raised those babies the same way and on the same diet. At 4 years of age the babies were adults and they also bred, laid eggs and the eggs hatched. I raised those babies the same way and 4 years later the process repeated itself. The process continues to this day 21 years later. When Zeiglers came out with a Tortoise diet I switched to it and discontinued the Iguana diet, That was years ago.
At the same time that this experiment was underway I took 2 baby Green Iguanas and set them up the same way as the Russians and fed them only dry Zeiglers Iguana food, They also ALWAYS had access to drinking water. As Luck would have it they turned out to be a pair. The female lived for 15 years and produced 3 clutches of eggs that hatched and resulted in aprox 60 baby Green Iguanas. The male lived for 19 years. Upoun their deaths the Vets did necropsys to try and determin cause of death as they both said the Iguanas would die at an un naturally early age of Renal failur. In both instances they concluded that the internal organs looked normal and cause of death was old age. I did not keep any of the babies as there were just too many.
I am not saying this proves anything and that is why I never published the information as other people may have varying results. These were just my results.
I do not own a UV, UVA or a UVB light and I have never purchased one.

The End

Lynn

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Also it should be noted that all the Russian Tortoises raised on the commercial diet and no UV (no windows either as the experiment took place in my basement) developed smooth and normal. The Green Iguanas also were completely Normal. And No I dont work for Zeiglers Hahahaha

Lynn

 

[chadk]

I knew a guy who spent nearly his whole life living in his basement living off of fast food his wife bought him - and plenty of fresh drinking water. They had chrildren, and he live to be about 60 and died of 'natural causes'.

 

[Madkins007]

So, what is the bottom line?

From what I can see, it is that there are several documented cases of tortoises and turtles being raised without access to natural or artificial UVB who nonetheless seem to have grown and reproduced in a normal way. These animals were offered some form of vitamin D in their diets or through supplements.



So- the flip side question would be: Is artificial UVB BENEFICIAL for tortoises? After all, there is risk to the eyes and of overdosing on vitamin D, there is the short useful life-span of the bulbs, etc.

I would suggest that when used properly- proper rating for the enclosure, mounted at the right height, replaced as needed, and making sure that the animals in the habitat have plenty of ways to get out of the light, AND limiting other vitamin D sources, that UVB lights are fine if you have tortoises with a higher D3 need and/or want to go that route.

But I DO think that too many keepers do the 'more is better' bit, sunblast their animals, oversupplement them, or just plain overdo the UVB instead of treating it like the rather delicate issue it is.

 

[Lynn DeVries]

My favorite method of raising Tortoises is outdoors on natural feed with access too calcium carbonate so they can eat it as they feel the need. but in my climate some species are just too delicate to be outdoors more than a month in summer. For these I feed zeiglers Tortoise diet or Mazuri and I am experimenting with Zoo Med. The Calcium/phospherus ratios and D3 are supposedly at correct levels in the diets already, so no supplements are needed.
I stressed the point of having fresh drinking water earlier, because on a dry commercial diet their water intake is higher than when they are eating vegetation that already has water in it.
The experiment I mentioned earlier with the Russian Tortoises is in my basement Tortoise room, not in some dark cold cellar. And the reason I let it continue is not too prove anything, but rather because they seem very content and healthy. And as I have heard Ed say..."If it isnt broke, why fix it?"
One last point I would like too bring up is Commercially prepared aquatic Turtle food such as Reptomin and even Purina Trout chow. Both of these pelleted diets are commonly used (as are others) in the raising and maintenance of aquatic Turtles and widely accepted by keepers and Zoos. I have raised hundreds of aquatic turtles on these two aformentioned diets without any problems. And yet the commercial Tortoise foods come under heavy fire by the Tortoise community. I think its just a matter of time before they become the norm.

Lynn