Vet Visit Confusion

[KT1]

Hello!
I have a 3.5 y/o Leopard Tortoise (pics below).
He is about 12” L x 7”W and weighs about 8# (according to my scale, the vet said he weighed around 4#).

Lately I have noticed he breathes heavy at times—sometimes when I open his habitat, sometimes when soaking.
In the last week, his appetite is up and down. Normally heats everything I give him. However, in the last week he has been not eating some meals.

I took him to the vet today and it was a little upsetting and confusing.

• I asked about his size abd she said he is so large b/c I only feed him greens, no grass or hay, which she said should be about 70% of his diet. His regular diet consisits of Mazuri pellets, turnip greens, beet greens, kale, endive, escarole, radicchio, and red/green dandelion.
• The vet took x-rays and said his spine is slightly curved and his top scutes are “weird”. She asked if he ever had a traumatic event, and the answer is not that I have ever seen/experienced (I have had him since he was a baby).
• The vet is concerned b/c although you could see his digestive tract in the x-ray, she could not see his liver and she’s worried it could be enlarged.
• She wanted to put him on antibiotics “just in case,” but I did not do that. She wants a recheck in a few weeks, and then possibly do blood work.

My tort Albee has a closed chamber enclosure (8’x3’) w/ orchid bark as the substrate.
Temp is around 90 degrees F.

Should I be feeding him grass/hay? What type?
I thought his carpace/scutes were disformed b/c of pyramiding?
He was not in a closed chamber until he was about 1 y/o, although his first habitat was covered by a plastic greenhouse.
Thoughts on the antibiotics?
Should I be doing something differently?

Many thanks for any input!

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

A lot of vets are not very knowledgeable about tortoises and jump to antibiotics when not needed. The grass into his diet is good advice.. u can add untreated grass from ur lawn or add some wheat grass for fiber which u can find at many specialty health stores or grow ur own. Do u add calcium supplement's to his greens? 8x3 is pretty small for a 12 inch tortoise and i would try to upgrade in size. What don you use for UVB source? A pic of ur enclosure could help with giving some helpful advice.

 

[zovick]

Hello!
I have a 3.5 y/o Leopard Tortoise (pics below).
He is about 12” L x 7”W and weighs about 8# (according to my scale, the vet said he weighed around 4#).

Lately I have noticed he breathes heavy at times—sometimes when I open his habitat, sometimes when soaking.
In the last week, his appetite is up and down. Normally heats everything I give him. However, in the last week he has been not eating some meals.

I took him to the vet today and it was a little upsetting and confusing.

• I asked about his size abd she said he is so large b/c I only feed him greens, no grass or hay, which she said should be about 70% of his diet. His regular diet consisits of Mazuri pellets, turnip greens, beet greens, kale, endive, escarole, radicchio, and red/green dandelion.
• The vet took x-rays and said his spine is slightly curved and his top scutes are “weird”. She asked if he ever had a traumatic event, and the answer is not that I have ever seen/experienced (I have had him since he was a baby).
• The vet is concerned b/c although you could see his digestive tract in the x-ray, she could not see his liver and she’s worried it could be enlarged.
• She wanted to put him on antibiotics “just in case,” but I did not do that. She wants a recheck in a few weeks, and then possibly do blood work.

My tort Albee has a closed chamber enclosure (8’x3’) w/ orchid bark as the substrate.
Temp is around 90 degrees F.

Should I be feeding him grass/hay? What type?
I thought his carpace/scutes were disformed b/c of pyramiding?
He was not in a closed chamber until he was about 1 y/o, although his first habitat was covered by a plastic greenhouse.
Thoughts on the antibiotics?
Should I be doing something differently?

Many thanks for any input!

It sounds as though you may need to find a vet that knows something more about tortoises.

I have never heard of greens making a tortoise grow larger than any other diet regimen.

You were wise NOT to get antibiotics for an undiagnosed condition. That is not the standard of care.

Yes, your tortoise has some pyramiding, but I have seen far worse. From the angle of your photos, I cannot tell if the backline is perfectly straight or not, but it does not appear to be scoliotic from what I can see, and even if the shell is a bit asymmetrical, that has nothing to do with anything, IMHO.

The diet could be expanded to include other foods such as opuntia cactus pads, various weeds, leaves, and grasses from outside (taken from areas not sprayed with pesticides). If you were to try some different food items, the tortoise's appetite might pick up again.

@Tom may be able to give you some more ideas.

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

I agree ur Leopard doesnt look to bad. They are very prone to pyramiding even under good conditions.

 

[Yvonne G]

It's a beautiful tortoise, but I don't have anything god to say about your vet.

 

[KT1]

Thank you so much for all of the words of encouragement and great advice.

Sad thing is, I went to the “exotic” vet clinic. I did find out that I was not seeing the tortoise specialist though.

What is the best hay to get, orchid hay/grass?
Thanks for the tips on different food, he does get cactus once in a while, but more often would be better.

Is there any reason that anyone knows of to explain why he is so large? And yes, I am sure he is going to need a larger enclosure.

Another question, how much humidity does he need now that he is a juvenile?

Thank you again, I so appreciate all of the advice and help!

 

[Tom]

Hello!
I have a 3.5 y/o Leopard Tortoise (pics below).
He is about 12” L x 7”W and weighs about 8# (according to my scale, the vet said he weighed around 4#).

Lately I have noticed he breathes heavy at times—sometimes when I open his habitat, sometimes when soaking.
In the last week, his appetite is up and down. Normally heats everything I give him. However, in the last week he has been not eating some meals.

I took him to the vet today and it was a little upsetting and confusing.

• I asked about his size abd she said he is so large b/c I only feed him greens, no grass or hay, which she said should be about 70% of his diet. His regular diet consisits of Mazuri pellets, turnip greens, beet greens, kale, endive, escarole, radicchio, and red/green dandelion.
• The vet took x-rays and said his spine is slightly curved and his top scutes are “weird”. She asked if he ever had a traumatic event, and the answer is not that I have ever seen/experienced (I have had him since he was a baby).
• The vet is concerned b/c although you could see his digestive tract in the x-ray, she could not see his liver and she’s worried it could be enlarged.
• She wanted to put him on antibiotics “just in case,” but I did not do that. She wants a recheck in a few weeks, and then possibly do blood work.

My tort Albee has a closed chamber enclosure (8’x3’) w/ orchid bark as the substrate.
Temp is around 90 degrees F.

Should I be feeding him grass/hay? What type?
I thought his carpace/scutes were disformed b/c of pyramiding?
He was not in a closed chamber until he was about 1 y/o, although his first habitat was covered by a plastic greenhouse.
Thoughts on the antibiotics?
Should I be doing something differently?

Many thanks for any input!

Here is what I see:
-Where is it 90 degrees and when? There are four temps we need to know: Warm side, cool side, basking area and over night low. In closed chambers, sometimes warm and cool side are the same and we just call them "ambient temp".
-What type of basking lamp.
-8x3 feet is WAYYYY too small for a 12 inch tortoise. Its fine to have him sleep overnight in that in the dark, but I keep 12 inch tortoises in something at least 30x30 feet. Keeping tortoises in small enclosures can cause all sorts of problems. Spine malformations and other orthopedic problems are certainly possible.
-Your tortoises size is based on its genetics. Grocery store greens are not a great food, but that doesn't make them grow larger or faster. Grocery store greens can be a decent base, but they need to be amended. Grocery store greens generally lack calcium, lack fiber, and some have goiterogens. If you add in soaked horse hay pellets, ZooMed Pellets, cut grass, or cut and re-hydrated grass hay, this will fix the lack of fiber. Add some calcium powder to fix that part, and add in dried leaf options from kapidolofarms.com, or herbal hay from torotisesupply.com, or flower topper from ZooMed. The Mazuri pellets are a good supplemental food once or twice a week too.
-I can't comment on your vet's comments because I don't know what she is looking at, but it would probably be an interesting conversation if I were there in person.

Your questions:
1. Yes. Grass and grass hay, both chopped and introduced slowly, would be a good addition to the diet. But try to feed mostly broadleaf weeds and leaves, and stay out of the grocery store when you can. When you must use grocery store, add in those amendments.
2. Your tortoise has mild pyramiding. Not bad at all. This could be due to the basking lamp. What type are you using?
3. I would not do antibiotics based on the info given here.
4. What you should be doing differently is a MUCH larger enclosure, possibly some temperature corrections, and a better diet, though your diet is pretty good compared to most, so don't feel like we are saying it is awful. It just needs a little more stuff added in to make it closer to optimal.

 

[wellington]

Make needed changes, specially to the enclosure size. I had to rehab a leopard kept in an enclosure that was too small.
Add the better foods to its diet and get him outside during warm weather in a big enclosure.

 

[KT1]

Thanks again for all of the advice!
I’ve made notes of all of the dietary changes, thanks for the resources as well. That’s an easy fix.
Ahhh, the enclosure….not as easy of a fix, but I will work on it. I knew I would have to replace it eventually, but didn’t think it would be so soon.

In the summer, he has an outdoor enclosure, and gets a lot more fresh plants and herbs that I grow.

I do give calcium powder 2x/we
I have 2 RHE’s in the enclosure and 2 Arcadia T5 UVB bulbs.
No basking light. Do I need one?
The temp on the warm side is between 90° -100°, and the cooler side it’s 83° - 86°.

A few more questions:
Do the dried herbs and leaf mixtures need to be rehydrated?
Does he still need his Mazuri pellets soaked?
How high should the humidity be now that he is a bit older?
Does he need to stay in a closed chamber,? Are they ever able to be moved to more of an open top enclosure?
Anything else I should be doing?

Many many thanks!

 

[Yvonne G]

I just sprinkled the dried food items over the wet greens.
Yes, soak the Mazuri.
Once they're big enough to go outside, it's not as important to have 80% humidity. Just dampen the indoor substrate.
If you build a heated, insulated shelter in his outdoor enclosure, he doesn't need to come indoors anymore.

 

[EppsDynasty]

Another example of a Vet charging for wrong (not bad) instructions. If Electricians could act like Vets electrocution would be the leading cause of death for humans. It is as if wrong care,advice and treatment does not matter because it is an animal. This terrible professional behaviour would never fly if it was humans in their care. @KT1 you have just learned a very valuable lesson about the Veterinary profession.

 

[KT1]

I just sprinkled the dried food items over the wet greens.
Yes, soak the Mazuri.
Once they're big enough to go outside, it's not as important to have 80% humidity. Just dampen the indoor substrate.
If you build a heated, insulated shelter in his outdoor enclosure, he doesn't need to come indoors anymore.

I don’t think I would leave him outside during the Chicago winters, but summer is a different story.

Sooo… his next indoor enclosure could have an open I thought that was the regular top, with the heaters on the sides?
If this is the case, do you get light stands for the UVB bulbs?
Thanks!

 

[Yvonne G]

@wellington lives in Chicago, and I THINK her leopard lives outside. Barb (Wellington) : How and where do you house your tortoise in winter?

 

[ecachuh]

Another example of a Vet charging for wrong (not bad) instructions. If Electricians could act like Vets electrocution would be the leading cause of death for humans. It is as if wrong care,advice and treatment does not matter because it is an animal. This terrible professional behaviour would never fly if it was humans in their care. @KT1 you have just learned a very valuable lesson about the Veterinary profession.

Just like going to urgent care....they give everyone the same thing. Antibiotic shot, steroid shot, Antibiotics and steroids to take home.

 

[Tom]

Ahhh, the enclosure….not as easy of a fix, but I will work on it. I knew I would have to replace it eventually, but didn’t think it would be so soon.

When properly cared for, they do grow fast.

In the summer, he has an outdoor enclosure, and gets a lot more fresh plants and herbs that I grow.

That is great.

I do give calcium powder 2x/we
I have 2 RHE’s in the enclosure and 2 Arcadia T5 UVB bulbs.
No basking light. Do I need one?
The temp on the warm side is between 90° -100°, and the cooler side it’s 83° - 86°.

Those temps sound okay. Most people run a basking lamp, but it appears that what you are doing is working, so I wouldn't change it other than making a much larger enclosure.

A few more questions:
Do the dried herbs and leaf mixtures need to be rehydrated?
Does he still need his Mazuri pellets soaked?
How high should the humidity be now that he is a bit older?
Does he need to stay in a closed chamber,? Are they ever able to be moved to more of an open top enclosure?
Anything else I should be doing?

-You CAN re-hydrate the dried leaf options, but you don't NEED to do it.
-Yes, soak the Mazuri.
-Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. If the tortoises is still growing, I would try to keep it humid much as you can. My area is dry outside, so I humidify my night boxes. Higher humidity also help maintain good hydration as it reduces water loss through respiration.
-I would keep the tortoise in a closed chamber as long as possible, but that just isn't practical for a 12 inch tortoise. A tortoise that size needs a room sized enclosure. Humidify the whole room!

 

[wellington]

@wellington lives in Chicago, and I THINK her leopard lives outside. Barb (Wellington) : How and where do you house your tortoise in winter?

Mine are housed in an insulated and heated shed.

 

[wellington]

Hello!
I have a 3.5 y/o Leopard Tortoise (pics below).
He is about 12” L x 7”W and weighs about 8# (according to my scale, the vet said he weighed around 4#).

Lately I have noticed he breathes heavy at times—sometimes when I open his habitat, sometimes when soaking.
In the last week, his appetite is up and down. Normally heats everything I give him. However, in the last week he has been not eating some meals.

I took him to the vet today and it was a little upsetting and confusing.

• I asked about his size abd she said he is so large b/c I only feed him greens, no grass or hay, which she said should be about 70% of his diet. His regular diet consisits of Mazuri pellets, turnip greens, beet greens, kale, endive, escarole, radicchio, and red/green dandelion.
• The vet took x-rays and said his spine is slightly curved and his top scutes are “weird”. She asked if he ever had a traumatic event, and the answer is not that I have ever seen/experienced (I have had him since he was a baby).
• The vet is concerned b/c although you could see his digestive tract in the x-ray, she could not see his liver and she’s worried it could be enlarged.
• She wanted to put him on antibiotics “just in case,” but I did not do that. She wants a recheck in a few weeks, and then possibly do blood work.

My tort Albee has a closed chamber enclosure (8’x3’) w/ orchid bark as the substrate.
Temp is around 90 degrees F.

Should I be feeding him grass/hay? What type?
I thought his carpace/scutes were disformed b/c of pyramiding?
He was not in a closed chamber until he was about 1 y/o, although his first habitat was covered by a plastic greenhouse.
Thoughts on the antibiotics?
Should I be doing something differently?

Many thanks for any input!

I may know the vet you went too. Chicago Exotics Animal Hospital in Skokie? They have lousy idea of care for tortoises. Read their caresheet for leopard tortoises and compare to this forum and you'll see how bad they are. I had an email argument with them years ago and they haven't changed a thing.

 

[KT1]

Mine are housed in an insulated and heated shed.

Once again, thank you for all the information, I am very appreciative!

@wellington
Yes, that is where I went. do you have another vet you use, just in case?

 

[wellington]

Once again, thank you for all the information, I am very appreciative!

@wellington
Yes, that is where I went. do you have another vet you use, just in case?

I used the same Skokie vet once to give my supposed egg bound tortoise oxytocin to induce labor. The other place I used first, who did nothing for my tort, I would not recommend either.
The best thing to do is only take a tortoise to a vet if the tort is obviously sick. Then do that after getting advice from this forum. This way things aren't done that you know is not right.
Other then those two times and it being the same female, none of my others has ever been to a vet. If I had just waited, the one female wouldn't have had to go either.