Western hermann?

ben32hayt

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Hi about 6 months ago I posted some pictures of a western hermann tortoise I bought from a breeder. Well some people had doubts that he(I think) is a western. I would love to know your guys opinion on the sub-species and sex of my Hermanns tortoise. Here are some of the pictures I took with an iPad, these pics are not the greatest. ImageUploadedByTortForum1388773701.070367.jpgImageUploadedByTortForum1388773719.354574.jpgImageUploadedByTortForum1388773748.739176.jpgImageUploadedByTortForum1388773759.073069.jpgImageUploadedByTortForum1388773783.592077.jpg
 
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juli11

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I think you've got a male
 

hunterk997

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I also agree male. But I have no idea on determining subspecies. You can check out the identification thread in the hermann's forum.
 

Pokeymeg

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Male, and looks western to me. I'm not an expert, but based on Chris's IDing guides, I say western. Especially with those solid black bands, wow! Very pretty tortoise :)
 

juli11

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With the species I don't know. Do you have pictures of the parents? Maybe because you got it from a breeder..
 

ben32hayt

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Sorry I don't have any pictures of the parents but when I compared it to the diagrams posted by Chris Leone it looked like a western.
 

juli11

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That's sometimes difficult to identify the subspecies of testudo. But you'll see it in the future. Western are smaller than eastern.
 

ben32hayt

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Pokeymeg said:
Male, and looks western to me. I'm not an expert, but based on Chris's IDing guides, I say western. Especially with those solid black bands, wow! Very pretty tortoise :)

Thanks, I too think he is a western.
 

diamondbp

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I hate to be the one that doubts western, but I do have my doubts. Some characteristics are somewhat western, but the coloration isn't as intense as I've seen in other westerns. I would expect a higher more intense yellow banding and a deeper black than what it displays. But hermanni aren't my specialty so I may be wrong. I will see if Chris can chime in to help us out.
 

HermanniChris

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Hi everyone.
Ben that tortoise is unfortunately a hybrid. The first thing that stands out is the ground color. It is not a true golden yellow but rather a more brown or tan to it. The black bands, although close to what a western exhibits, is something that can be found on all subspecies of Hermanns tortoises. The result of this hybrid is probably no one'a fault as it is impossible to know what the parents have been bred with even prior to when the breeder who sold you this obtained them. What I'm saying is, the mother may appear to be a true western but who is to say that she wasn't bred to an eastern at some point in her past before this breeder got her in his/her hands.
The carapace markings of this animal are also not correct and neither is the ratio of the femoral vs. the pectoral scute suture on the plastron.

The best reference I can offer at the moment is the "Myths and Mistakes" page on my site hermannihaven.com

It talks about the black found on Hermanns tortoises' plastrons as well as the myth about size and other factors.

In the end, it is so hard to tell the difference and things like this happen by true accident. I highly doubt the person set out to sell you a hybrid.

In any case, even hybrids deserve no less of a life than any other tortoise, so enjoy him, I just recommend that you don't breed him one day.

Hope this helps.


ImageUploadedByTortForum1388788281.923546.jpg
Here's what a western at the size of yours would look like.
 
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diamondbp

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Agreed Chris. For me it was really the coloration. I didn't look at it and go "WOW" thats a western, which is usually the case with pure specimens. It's a beautiful tortoise though.
 

ben32hayt

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Wow! Big difference, I guess I really needed to see one around the size I have. Thank you Chris for the help- Ben
 

HermanniChris

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Hi Toby, not sure if you read the replies but you will see that Ben has a hybrid, not a pure western.
 

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