What are the specifics of "bad for eyes" from UVB coils?

[MasCaraLVB]

I've read so much discussion in the forum about how bad coiled UVB bulbs are for tortoise's eyes. But what specifically is bad, as in what physical damage is everyone referring to?

I haven't yet come across why, just that it's bad. I think scientifically so I need evidence and proof to feel appropriately informed.

If anyone has specific links to show this I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance!

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-53345.html

 

[Yvonne G]

It's likened to snow blindness. Depending upon how long the tortoise was under the light, depends upon the severity of the problem. If you do something about it as soon as you notice th swelling, he gets over it quickly. When it first happened, a year or more ago, to my sister, we knew nothing about it and she didn't realize it was the light causing her baby sulcatas to have swollen eyes. One of the babies was truly blinded, and eventually died from not being able to eat. One was blinded and she figured out how to feed a blind baby, and the other one recovered in about a month.

(It's been a while since I had to recall this story, so I may have my facts a little out of kilter, but the jist of the story is correct.)

 

[Tom]

Studies and statistic compiling takes lots of time, effort, knowledge and money. Who is it that is willing to shell out tens of thousands, or more, to study each and every one of these bulbs, in each and every possible usage situation, with each and every possible species, with each and every possible variable?

The manufacturers? The distributors? The retail sellers? None of them want to find it that the stuff they make millions on is at best ineffective for its designed purpose, or at worst harmful to the animals they promote their use for. There is no big money player in this equation that even WANTS to know if these bulbs are sometimes dangerous. Only the consumer, the pet owner, wants to know. I certainly don't have the money to fund a legitimate study on this subject. Do you? And it's just not as simple as sticking a $300 UV meter under a few bulbs.

What we are left with is to fend for ourselves in this matter and in many other issues concerning husbandry practices for our animals. Hobbyists like me see all sorts of stuff first hand. I can report my observations and try to help others avoid the problems that I have personally seen and encountered, but I know of no studies to cite or statistics to show. There have been hundreds of cases here on this forum alone of "my tortoise rubs his eyes excessively" or "after putting my new UV bulb in, my tortoise hides all day and won't even come out to eat." We see it almost daily. There is no study to back this up, but the threads are all there to be read. The person stops using the coil bulb and the eye rubbing stops, and the hider suddenly resumes normal activity. I don't know how much more obvious it needs to be, and I don't know how to "prove" it.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Well said, Tom.

And I can personally attest that UV-coil bulbs caused blindness in a couple of my tortoises. Like Tom said, I stopped using the bulbs, and the tortoises got better.

 

[jaizei]

What we are left with is to fend for ourselves in this matter and in many other issues concerning husbandry practices for our animals. Hobbyists like me see all sorts of stuff first hand. I can report my observations and try to help others avoid the problems that I have personally seen and encountered, but I know of no studies to cite or statistics to show. There have been hundreds of cases here on this forum alone of "my tortoise rubs his eyes excessively" or "after putting my new UV bulb in, my tortoise hides all day and won't even come out to eat." We see it almost daily. There is no study to back this up, but the threads are all there to be read. The person stops using the coil bulb and the eye rubbing stops, and the hider suddenly resumes normal activity. I don't know how much more obvious it needs to be, and I don't know how to "prove" it.

Remember back when pyramiding was caused by too much protein? That too was based on observation. Animals fed a higher protein diet grew (and pyramided) faster than those fed a low protein diet. It was only when someone went looking for actual scientific proof that we learned that higher protein diets only accelerate pyramiding caused by other factors. This is one of the reasons people want actual proof. Because even things that were 'obvious' have been wrong before.

Hundreds of cases? I must have missed those. I have read quite a few where someone joins and has an animal acting lethargic, rubbing it's eyes, eyes closed, etc. Except using coil lamps isn't the only error in their husbandry. Their temp are too low, their substrate is dry, their diet is poor [Vit A deficiency?]. So when they change 100% of their husbandry, I don't think we can chalk another 'win' up against coil lamps. Especially when some of those cases aren't even using compact lamps.

 

[jaizei]

What we are left with is to fend for ourselves in this matter and in many other issues concerning husbandry practices for our animals. Hobbyists like me see all sorts of stuff first hand. I can report my observations and try to help others avoid the problems that I have personally seen and encountered, but I know of no studies to cite or statistics to show. There have been hundreds of cases here on this forum alone of "my tortoise rubs his eyes excessively" or "after putting my new UV bulb in, my tortoise hides all day and won't even come out to eat." We see it almost daily. There is no study to back this up, but the threads are all there to be read. The person stops using the coil bulb and the eye rubbing stops, and the hider suddenly resumes normal activity. I don't know how much more obvious it needs to be, and I don't know how to "prove" it.

I have read quite a few where someone has an animal acting lethargic, rubbing it's eyes, eyes closed, etc. Except using coil lamps isn't the only error in their husbandry. Their temp are too low, their substrate is bone dry, their diet is poor [Vit A deficiency?]. So when they change 100% of their husbandry, I don't think we can immediately chalk another 'win' up against coil lamps. Are the lamps the problem? Are they only exacerbating an existing problem caused by something else? Or do they have nothing to do with the problem?

I am always in favor more information. Suppose we were 99.9999% sure the coil lamps cause problems. Okay, now I want to know why they cause the problems. Then when we know why, how do we 'fix' it? When there were problems before, someone actually did those things. It is thanks to her that our understanding of the potential problems is at the point it is.

Remember back when pyramiding was caused by too much protein? That too was based on observations. Animals fed a higher protein diet grew (and pyramided) faster than those fed a low protein diet. It was only when someone went looking for actual proof that we learned that higher protein diets only accelerate pyramided growth caused by other factors. This is one of the reasons people want actual proof. Because even things that were 'obvious' have been wrong before.

 

[Chrisstencil]

What type of bulbs should we use to meet the UVB necessity?

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I am always in favor more information. Suppose we were 99.9999% sure the coil lamps cause problems. Okay, now I want to know why they cause the problems. Then when we know why, how do we 'fix' it? When there were problems before, someone actually did those things. It is thanks to her that our understanding of the potential problems is at the point it is.

If I were to wager a guess, it probably has to do with the design of the bulbs. These bulbs (even before some were made for the pet industry) were designed to be brighter. Great for humans with ****-poor vision in our modern indoor world. But is brighter necessarily better for tortoises? The same goes for T-5 bulbs (which I have also used on tortoises, with similarly ill results). These bulbs were originally designed to be more intense lighting for aquariums, specifically reef tanks for coral growth. But is the more intense light really better for reptiles as well? Yes, we're getting a bulb that puts out more UV and lasts longer, but we get the bad along with the good: brighter, more intense light.

I find the same in my own home: even with lampshades, I find coil/compact flourescents to be too bright for my taste. I prefer the slightly softer light from an incandescent bulb (which sadly are harder to find).

One thing to remember is that any of these bulbs are an isolated fixed, highly concentrated beam of light. Yes, the sunlight outside gets bright, too, but it is often filtered through ever-moving cloud cover, and foliage on the ground where tortoises often hang out. This is why I prefer (especially for forest species), a tube flourescent bulb that runs all the way across the enclosure to provide more unversal coverage, versus the tight-beam coverage of a CFB.

So what is the solution? Stop using the bulbs until a better design is produced.

---

To me personally, "WHY" they are causing the problem is not so important, because I already know that they can and do cause problems. I have tried mounting them different ways, as have others. We all have tried different brands. Yet people still run into issues.

Logically, it tells me that the bulbs are still a problem, regardless of mounting position, brand, coil or U-shaped. Alternatively, standard tube bulbs (except for T-5s) and MVBs do NOT cause the same problem. Anyone with a brain would opt to avoid the product with questionable issues, and stick with those that do not present such issues.

 

[wellington]

What type of bulbs should we use to meet the UVB necessity?

Depending on species, either a mvb (mercury vapor bulb) or a fluorescent long tube and of course as much sunshine as possible is the very best.

---

Might I add. The compact fluorescent coil type bulbs that are sold for us to use in our house hold lamps have been found to cause problems in humans. Now I seen the report on it sometime last year. I heard it on the news and seen it on the Internet. So if you google it, you probably will find where even those type coils are also bad.
Also the new ones that have supposedly been "fixed" well, there are still too many people having eye problems that when questioned, are using coil bulbs. I wouldn't take the chance that they "fixed" them or that its only the "old" ones that are a problem.

 

[jaizei]

I am always in favor more information. Suppose we were 99.9999% sure the coil lamps cause problems. Okay, now I want to know why they cause the problems. Then when we know why, how do we 'fix' it? When there were problems before, someone actually did those things. It is thanks to her that our understanding of the potential problems is at the point it is.

If I were to wager a guess, it probably has to do with the design of the bulbs. These bulbs (even before some were made for the pet industry) were designed to be brighter. Great for humans with ****-poor vision in our modern indoor world. But is brighter necessarily better for tortoises? The same goes for T-5 bulbs (which I have also used on tortoises, with similarly ill results). These bulbs were originally designed to be more intense lighting for aquariums, specifically reef tanks for coral growth. But is the more intense light really better for reptiles as well? Yes, we're getting a bulb that puts out more UV and lasts longer, but we get the bad along with the good: brighter, more intense light.

I find the same in my own home: even with lampshades, I find coil/compact flourescents to be too bright for my taste. I prefer the slightly softer light from an incandescent bulb (which sadly are harder to find).

One thing to remember is that any of these bulbs are an isolated fixed, highly concentrated beam of light. Yes, the sunlight outside gets bright, too, but it is often filtered through ever-moving cloud cover, and foliage on the ground where tortoises often hang out. This is why I prefer (especially for forest species), a tube flourescent bulb that runs all the way across the enclosure to provide more unversal coverage, versus the tight-beam coverage of a CFB.

So what is the solution? Stop using the bulbs until a better design is produced.

---

To me personally, "WHY" they are causing the problem is not so important, because I already know that they can and do cause problems. I have tried mounting them different ways, as have others. We all have tried different brands. Yet people still run into issues.

Logically, it tells me that the bulbs are still a problem, regardless of mounting position, brand, coil or U-shaped. Alternatively, standard tube bulbs (except for T-5s) and MVBs do NOT cause the same problem. Anyone with a brain would opt to avoid the product with questionable issues, and stick with those that do not present such issues.

---

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/post-655366.html#pid655366

post 13 is an efficient read on the issues that I wrote.

It is the whole range of what is.

Will

 

[jaizei]

To me personally, "WHY" they are causing the problem is not so important, because I already know that they can and do cause problems. I have tried mounting them different ways, as have others. We all have tried different brands. Yet people still run into issues.

Logically, it tells me that the bulbs are still a problem, regardless of mounting position, brand, coil or U-shaped. Alternatively, standard tube bulbs (except for T-5s) and MVBs do NOT cause the same problem. Anyone with a brain would opt to avoid the product with questionable issues, and stick with those that do not present such issues.

Actually, pretty much any type of UV lighting can (and has) cause(d) problems.

---

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/post-655366.html#pid655366

post 13 is an efficient read on the issues that I wrote.

It is the whole range of what is.

Will

I've quoted the referenced post, below.

I think #2 is not accurate. What's your source for the idea of the lamps being coated before they are bent? I believe CFLs are shaped then coated.

Beyond the hype on either side of this issue and the arm waving emoted points of view, the value is the lumens per watt, and the higher efficiency than most straight tubes, that it seems like you can only get with coils.

You can get both, use T5 HO tubes. LLL carries the new ZooMed brand, and then there is LightYourReptiles selling Arcadia T5 HO. They give the higher efficiency of the coil 'tubes' and the more expansive coverage of traditional tubes.

There had been, may still be three issues with the coils.

1) Poor phosphor mix, quality control, or application

2) When the tube is 'twisted' that coating becomes compromised,

3) The ballast is a throw away item with the tube, not a multi-tube ballast as is in most straight tube fixtures.

Number one can be an issue with any tube anytime.

Number two is unique to coil or twisted, or any bent tube. The coating on the inside of the tube is applied before the tube is shaped, and in the shaping proces the coating can become compromised. The light inside the tube and behind the phosphor coating is absolutely blinding, like a scaled down arc welders arc. If there is a small crack in that coating, that scaled down arc light will cause fatigue and damage to any eyes.

Three, that ballast emits an electromagnetic field that has been strongly correlated to many kinds of health issues in humans. Cause and effect are not tightly established, but there is a high correlation, so some countries have begun to not allow the sale of coil tube lighting. The same was true with straight tube ballast many years ago, that annoying whine sound that came from them among other issues. Straight tube ballast are for the most part made better, they are not throw away per tube.

I prefer to have illuminating light and heat light NOT in the same bulb such as the MVB (mercury vapor bulb), but have been using 80 watt - 220 volt type from LightYourReptiles, and for me the lower wattage does not throw so much heat, and they are working out well for me. I like them.

So coil, twisted, bent tubes have some issue that are still not fully resolved in how they are manufactured and/or quality control tested. Straight tubes seem to be OK as long as you are not seeking heat and illumination in the same bulb (use MVB then). If you want that large area coverage with a tube fixture the T5 HO are a good choice.

See post number 8 on this thread http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-68448.html for more detail.

Will

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Actually, pretty much any type of UV lighting can (and has) cause(d) problems.

Granted, MVBs certainly present logistical issues for users (the disadvantages of a 2-in-1 bulb), but I hear very few problems related to how it affects the animals themselves. Same with tubes. My only reply to your comment above is....squeaky wheels get the grease. If people have SO many problems with the other bulbs, I have to ask why I (or others) rarely hear about them, on this forum and others.

I'm not going to argue about it wit you anymore. All I know I have had no issues with MVBs or tube florescents. I know what works for me and my tortoises. To be honest, all my tortoises are kept outdoors 8 months out of the year now, so I really have no need for any artificial UV lighting anyway.

But use what you want. Their your animals and your responsibility.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I have not re-found the source video for the coat first then twist style of manufacture. I did find a video of one manufacture, that states they are more efficient by twist first then coat. The "cfl wiki" page indicates that a wide range of manufacture processes are used. Sometime mid year 2012, someone asked about these tubes (for the billionth time) and that is when the video was found, on a page of the dangers of them. There are dozens of youtube videos with that POV, the portion of the video was incidental, the commentary was the pre-twist coating was a place for introduction in coating leading to wave length issues. That's all I have right now.

Will

 

[Tom]

I have read quite a few where someone has an animal acting lethargic, rubbing it's eyes, eyes closed, etc. Except using coil lamps isn't the only error in their husbandry. Their temp are too low, their substrate is bone dry, their diet is poor [Vit A deficiency?]. So when they change 100% of their husbandry, I don't think we can immediately chalk another 'win' up against coil lamps. Are the lamps the problem? Are they only exacerbating an existing problem caused by something else? Or do they have nothing to do with the problem?

I've seen these cases with multiple issue too, but most of the cases here on the forum that I've read ARE a one issue problem. I said most, not all, so don't bother posting links to a few where there were multiple issues. In ALL of the cases I've seen for myself in person, the only issue was the cfl. The evidence and number of cases leaves now doubt in my mind.

I understand the need and want for facts and data, but sometimes we just have to use common sense about what works and doesn't work. To use your own example, I knew 15 years ago that protein wasn't the cause of pyramiding. I raised half a dozen tortoises with as little protein as humanly possible, probably a protein DEFICIENT dietand they still pyramided. I didn't know what WAS the cause, how to fix it or how to prove any of it, but observation and common sense told me the conventional wisdom was wrong. I did not need someone else's scientific study to "prove" what I was seeing with my own eyes. In this case, I don't care what Edna's spectrometer graphs do or don't show, I don't care what studies have or have not been done with CFL bulbs, I KNOW what I have seen and I've seen it many times. I don't know which one of Will's three presented possibilities might be the problem (maybe all three, a combination of two, or maybe some other thing that has not been presented) with these bulbs, I just know that I've repeatedly seen the issue, have not seen the issue with long tubes or MVB's and that is good enough for me. You and everyone else is welcome to spend as much of your time, effort and money researching the issue as you like. I will read your findings with interest and happily share whatever you discover to be the problem with everyone who will listen.

Pyramiding matters to me. I have spent 20 years researching, studying, conversing, experimenting, and trying to figure out every detail of it. I've spent time, effort and lots of money trying to unravel the enigma. It's my "thing". Most people don't care too much about a little cosmetic deformation and are willing to just take someone's word for it. Maybe this coil bulb issue is YOUR thing. Or Edna's. If so, I wish you well on your quest for knowledge. In the future, when you or someone else has figured out all the precise details about exactly what the issue is with these coil bulbs, I will listen with an open mind and happy heart, and be willing to reconsider their use. Until that time, I will not use them, will continue to recommend others not use them, and will consider them an obvious cause for eye issues for tortoises housed under them.

---

Actually, pretty much any type of UV lighting can (and has) cause(d) problems.

I have no doubt that "Internet proof" of this can be found. However, I have seen literally hundreds, possibly thousands, of reptiles housed under all sorts of heating and lighting situations. Every conceivable configuration. The only time I have ever seen any reptile of any species have any sort of eye issues under any sort of bulb or combination of bulbs is with coil type UV bulbs.

30 years of my own observations with thousands of examples is going to trump whatever copy/pasted Internet info anyone comes up with.

I make no apology for this.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-summary.htm

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Long tube fluorescent bulbs have a filter layer inside the glass that blocks out too much of the harmful UV, letting through an appropriate amount of UVA and UVB, as well as a wide spectrum of visible light.

Coiled compact fluorescent bulbs (CFLs) are supposed to have the same layer, but it's likely that the twisting of the glass weakens that layer. Whether it's CFLs for tortoises or people, more UV can get through, and that can be damaging to the eyes. CFLs put up in a person's room are probably not as damaging, because we don't look directly at them. However, when CFLs are put over a tortoise's enclosure for light and UV (the way a linear tube bulb is), too much UV is going to enter that tortoise's eyes. This is going to damage the retina, and if it goes on long enough, can lead to permanent blindness.