White flesh

TammyJ

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This is absolutely extraordinary. And I do believe I have just witnessed irrefutable evidence of the existence of at least 2 caring, meticulous, and brilliant TORTOISE VETS right here on this forum! Congratulations! Brings me to tears.
 

EppsDynasty

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Are you going to tell the vet about what you did? I can imagine how some time in the future, vets will be enthusiastically recommending the JoJo Epps method ! !
Angie
Was talking about that very thing this afternoon.
This is absolutely extraordinary. And I do believe I have just witnessed irrefutable evidence of the existence of at least 2 caring, meticulous, and brilliant TORTOISE VETS right here on this forum! Congratulations! Brings me to tears.
Thank You for the kind words. Lately the thought "If I ever am reincarnated I'm coming back as a Tortoise Veterinarian" has been running through my head.
 

Yvonne G

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Here’s Jo Jo…. View attachment 363803 what an experience. First sterilization of aluminum supports and plastron. Then build up acrylic on those aluminum supports. This was to make the supports be a "Bridge" over the effected Plastron areas. We did not want the supports to be against the plastron. All kinds of bad stuff would be under there for the life of the bond. View attachment 363804 View attachment 363805 Then we had to prep the plastron by first marking area of bonding. This area then needed to be scuffed up for better surface to bond with. View attachment 363806 View attachment 363807 The area of bonding needed to be primed then a small amount of acrylic was applied. View attachment 363808 We then had to put supports in place and keep pressure till the acrylic was dried, about 3 minutes to be safe is what we did. This was when I realized that an unplanned/thought of thing was happening, VAPORS. Ever walk into a nail salon...our little thing was being smothered with air full of acrylic vapors. I had to blow air from head to tail direction to keep a supply of fresh air and push as many vapors as possible to the rear. This became very hard to accomplish since we had to push the front area of the plastron to meet the support. Her front plastron is...was tilting upwards towards her head. View attachment 363810 And there it is, well the first one. View attachment 363809 Ooops pics got reversed....your all smart you'll figure it out way before I figure out how to now change it. This is where it really was hard to take pictures and help the wife so no pics on the 2nd supports placement. We needed to make sure the bonding in all 4 areas was SECURE. We made very small amounts of acrylic and coated the entire sides of the supports as well as the acrylic "pancakes." I call it this because thats what happened, by pressing them on it made 2 pancake shapes pieces of acrylic. 1 on the plastron 1 on the support. By coating them again it filled in any voids and made a more secure bond. View attachment 363811 Here you can see the supports are well above here leg height. As well as the air space between plastron and aluminum.
I really hope this came out ok this is by far my most "advanced' post, all these pics so must frustration....but well worth it I hope this helps some tortoise in need of a little support!
I can't imagine the horrific event that poor baby suffered that would break her shell like that. Just goes to show how resilient they are.
 

TammyJ

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Was talking about that very thing this afternoon.

Thank You for the kind words. Lately the thought "If I ever am reincarnated I'm coming back as a Tortoise Veterinarian" has been running through my head.
Yvonne will be right there along with you! She being our No. 1 Tort Vet to go to.
 

EppsDynasty

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2 things ... First
I can't imagine the horrific event that poor baby suffered that would break her shell like that. Just goes to show how resilient they are.
I'm including some pictures to show how much actual damage she incurred. At first look and inspection I was SURE a child (most likely) grabbed her by her front and snapped the bottom piece. Tail down head up .. now pinch the 2 together Plastron and Carapace ... easy to see how that could happen. Then after further investigation I saw other signs of damage ... Tooth damage. 37A31597-7F57-4595-A0A1-913332562BB4.jpeg C4CB2204-A55F-49A9-8575-5E0968AC06DA.jpeg You can see Tooth marks ... In the top pic it's center above her head, you can notice "chips" out of her Carapace. These correspond with the BIG chip out of her Plastron on the right in the bottom pic. Hell will never be a part of this Torts. life ... at least as long as I am alive. Can't wait till spring ...going to build here the most magical enclosure I can come up with ... Waterfall, shallow pond, a hill to climb on and see the world, all the fresh green sprouts a tort could ever want.
 

EppsDynasty

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@lazybfarm ... I tagged you because this might help you in your question about pairs. Not everything is evident to us no matter what WE belive.
Second ... We tried to do everything to limit the pain Jo Jo was in, EVERYTHING we could think of. Yesterday after completing her supports she was not active for a couple hours. Then watch out Jo Jo unstoppable. She started exhibiting behavior we had never seen with her. She would climb the edges of the tub she was in, she would walk all around the tub with no slowing or stopping. She was acting more like a tortoise on the move. Today as we started to soak and feed, our whole family was amazed at the level of activity she had. This was HEART BREAKING to me. This meant that the lower level of activity was due to PAIN. Clearly the shell being solid and unmovable was allowing her to climb and move without pain. She acts like a toddler now full of energy. @lazybfarm the tagging was to show you that even with the eagle eye of us, even with so much attention given to her, even with as soft a touch as we could muster we still had NO idea how much pain she was in. As much as we think we can UNDERSTAND our pets there is still unknowns. Tortoise behavior can be obvious, but can also be something we don't understand at all, or even notice. I'm not trying to put you down or talk down to you. I just thought that maybe this example might shed some light on how LITTLE we know.
 

zolasmum

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@lazybfarm ... I tagged you because this might help you in your question about pairs. Not everything is evident to us no matter what WE belive.
Second ... We tried to do everything to limit the pain Jo Jo was in, EVERYTHING we could think of. Yesterday after completing her supports she was not active for a couple hours. Then watch out Jo Jo unstoppable. She started exhibiting behavior we had never seen with her. She would climb the edges of the tub she was in, she would walk all around the tub with no slowing or stopping. She was acting more like a tortoise on the move. Today as we started to soak and feed, our whole family was amazed at the level of activity she had. This was HEART BREAKING to me. This meant that the lower level of activity was due to PAIN. Clearly the shell being solid and unmovable was allowing her to climb and move without pain. She acts like a toddler now full of energy. @lazybfarm the tagging was to show you that even with the eagle eye of us, even with so much attention given to her, even with as soft a touch as we could muster we still had NO idea how much pain she was in. As much as we think we can UNDERSTAND our pets there is still unknowns. Tortoise behavior can be obvious, but can also be something we don't understand at all, or even notice. I'm not trying to put you down or talk down to you. I just thought that maybe this example might shed some light on how LITTLE we know.
What you have described about the change in JoJo's behaviour with her new supports is amazing ! It is another of those tear-jerking moments when one realises just how much she must have been suffering, but managing to get by, somehow. You must be so proud about having achieved so much, and it will be something more that vets should know about tortoises ability to hide and endure pain.
The future looks so different for JoJo now - you must be really looking forward to seeing her having fun in the little paradise you are going to create for her - you and your family have achieved a wonderful thing for her -freedom from pain, after who knows how long she had been suffering !
Angie
p.s. I hope you will still keep on with JoJo's story - there are going to be a lot of people here who will want news of her- me included !
 

EppsDynasty

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What you have described about the change in JoJo's behaviour with her new supports is amazing ! It is another of those tear-jerking moments when one realises just how much she must have been suffering, but managing to get by, somehow. You must be so proud about having achieved so much, and it will be something more that vets should know about tortoises ability to hide and endure pain.
The future looks so different for JoJo now - you must be really looking forward to seeing her having fun in the little paradise you are going to create for her - you and your family have achieved a wonderful thing for her -freedom from pain, after who knows how long she had been suffering !
Angie
p.s. I hope you will still keep on with JoJo's story - there are going to be a lot of people here who will want news of her- me included !
As long as the 2 of us are together I'll tell her story. Your support and kindness have been tremendous Angie. I REALLY want to say Thank You to YOU. Being there whenever we needed you was a big boost of confidence. If I win the lottery we're coming to meet you and Zola, maybe even let Jo Jo go kayaking.
 

EppsDynasty

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Did the vet have any idea how old she might be?
I AM SO SORRY forgot to answer this ... No I didn't even ask. What do you think about a POLL here to see what the forum thinks? Do you have a guess? I have no idea, am very pleased though that her carapace is smooth.
 

EppsDynasty

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@Yvonne G ... Can we take a poll and see what the forum thinks of Jo Jo's age. I have no idea how to do this. O and whats your guess, how old do you think she is? Very curious about your estimate since mine would only be a guess at best.
 

TammyJ

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She already told you her exact age, didn't she? So now you just want to find out how close some of us may come!!!
 

Yvonne G

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I was assuming she's young because of her size, but her size may be related to the poor care she's had with the ducks. I have a couple young desert tortoises that look to be the same size as Jo Jo. They're four years old.
 

EppsDynasty

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I was assuming she's young because of her size, but her size may be related to the poor care she's had with the ducks. I have a couple young desert tortoises that look to be the same size as Jo Jo. They're four years old.
WOW.....I never would make a guess so I didn't have any real age in my head. My little Jo Jo is 4. Or about that.
 

Yvonne G

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WOW.....I never would make a guess so I didn't have any real age in my head. My little Jo Jo is 4. Or about that.
I think that's a good guess. Counting the growth rings isn't as accurate as when you count them on a tree, but it does give you some sort of an idea, and judging by Jo Jo's growth rings, she has had four or five growth spurts, so I think four years old is a safe guess. Of course, there may have been times in her life she didn't grow at all because of living with the ducks, so four may not be good at all, but, who knows? Maybe duck feathers are totally nutritious!!!
 

EppsDynasty

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I think that's a good guess. Counting the growth rings isn't as accurate as when you count them on a tree, but it does give you some sort of an idea, and judging by Jo Jo's growth rings, she has had four or five growth spurts, so I think four years old is a safe guess. Of course, there may have been times in her life she didn't grow at all because of living with the ducks, so four may not be good at all, but, who knows? Maybe duck feathers are totally nutritious!!!
Thanks for the reasoning behind your guess, it's good to know. Now when I quote the famous @Yvonne G I'll understand the logic. Quick question ... Did you hide your cape when I lived near you? I say this because you are a real Super Hero to me,
 

Yvonne G

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Thanks for the reasoning behind your guess, it's good to know. Now when I quote the famous @Yvonne G I'll understand the logic. Quick question ... Did you hide your cape when I lived near you? I say this because you are a real Super Hero to me,
Yeah, a super hero who was afraid to get on the roof and clean her solar panels. Just remember, I'm only human. I'm uncomfortable being put on that pedestal. I make mistakes too. It's just that I've been around a lot longer than a lot of Forum members, so I've had more time to absorb a lot of the info on here. It's all here. Ready for anyone to read and learn.
 

EppsDynasty

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Yeah, a super hero who was afraid to get on the roof and clean her solar panels. Just remember, I'm only human. I'm uncomfortable being put on that pedestal. I make mistakes too. It's just that I've been around a lot longer than a lot of Forum members, so I've had more time to absorb a lot of the info on here. It's all here. Ready for anyone to read and learn.
Don't forget Supermans weakness was Kryptonite yours may be Solar Panels, but you were up there! I'm very sorry for making you feel uncomfortable. Maybe if you could give me the Pedestal dimensions your comfortable with ... Then I can start to build it!
 

zolasmum

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As long as the 2 of us are together I'll tell her story. Your support and kindness have been tremendous Angie. I REALLY want to say Thank You to YOU. Being there whenever we needed you was a big boost of confidence. If I win the lottery we're coming to meet you and Zola, maybe even let Jo Jo go kayaking.
Thank you very much for your kind words - I became very emotionally involved with poor little JoJo's story -
and I was so impressed with the way you were dealing with it all -I thought of our little Zola in such an awful situation - I was eagerly awaiting each new post, and have felt much happier since her remarkable improvement. I'm sure all your family feel happier too !
Angie
 

EppsDynasty

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UPDATE: 696 grams with support. I screwed up and forgot to weigh her before and after placing the support. This would have showed us what the total support weight is. I will start to weigh her every Sunday now, everyday is overkill I've learned from reading here. We have a warm-up this week and all of our torts are enjoying sun. Jo Jo is like a spider monkey trapped in a tort shell. She's all over the place and FAST. I am very proud of our efforts to limit the pain, just wish I would have recognized how much pain she was in. This experience has changed me for ever. I will never again take movement and other things as a sign of limited pain or none.
 

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