Recently I was lambasted for saying “That hay was not a good or great food.” UNTIL a new tort owner understands how much “food” said tortoise needs and will eat Daily, Weekly you are just about guaranteed said tortoise will be underfed.
Why HAY is not a good or great option
- Thread starter EppsDynasty
- Start date
I tried to edit the post and it timed out.
Yesterday we rescued a tort and she passed almost immediately. The owner then gave us her sister so she did not suffer the same fate. He told us in the parking lot "I feed Timothy Hay and sometimes he doesn't eat it" but "I figure if he's hungry he'll eat it." He mistakenly thought it was a male.
I was Lambasted a few weeks ago for saying that Hay was not a good or great food. I pointed out that until a new owner of said tortoise(s) understands how much food the tortoise needs and will eat everyday, week. There are many reasons why tortoises will not eat hay such as stems/sticks or they simply have never eaten it. This creates the perfect situation for a tortoise to be starved for years. This tortoise is 10+ years old and maybe 10lbs ... HOLY S*^T. In this tortoises gut is SOME Timothy Hay but more Dead Grass, Dead leaves as in they were eaten already dead. There is an Acorn as well, as you can see, which is TOXIC. I will continue to tell people NOT to feed hay, grass until they completely understand how much Food, Nutrition, Water and other things their tortoise needs. It took me only weeks to come up with a real world example of how HAY is so misunderstood in the tort world. There are at least half a dozen people on FB in my area that openly post "How easy Tortoises are to take care of" with a picture of 1, 2, 5 Sulcatas around a flake of hay. This was my point with @Phil B and even @Tom. This is a problem I see, encounter in my life regularly with tortoise owners that just don't know better. I hope this might shed a little light on this (I Believe) underestimated problem in the tort world.
Yesterday we rescued a tort and she passed almost immediately. The owner then gave us her sister so she did not suffer the same fate. He told us in the parking lot "I feed Timothy Hay and sometimes he doesn't eat it" but "I figure if he's hungry he'll eat it." He mistakenly thought it was a male.
I was Lambasted a few weeks ago for saying that Hay was not a good or great food. I pointed out that until a new owner of said tortoise(s) understands how much food the tortoise needs and will eat everyday, week. There are many reasons why tortoises will not eat hay such as stems/sticks or they simply have never eaten it. This creates the perfect situation for a tortoise to be starved for years. This tortoise is 10+ years old and maybe 10lbs ... HOLY S*^T. In this tortoises gut is SOME Timothy Hay but more Dead Grass, Dead leaves as in they were eaten already dead. There is an Acorn as well, as you can see, which is TOXIC. I will continue to tell people NOT to feed hay, grass until they completely understand how much Food, Nutrition, Water and other things their tortoise needs. It took me only weeks to come up with a real world example of how HAY is so misunderstood in the tort world. There are at least half a dozen people on FB in my area that openly post "How easy Tortoises are to take care of" with a picture of 1, 2, 5 Sulcatas around a flake of hay. This was my point with @Phil B and even @Tom. This is a problem I see, encounter in my life regularly with tortoise owners that just don't know better. I hope this might shed a little light on this (I Believe) underestimated problem in the tort world.
But you also said these tortoises were not taken care of properly in any way. No lights, heat, etc. without proper heat and basking they can't properly digest their food. Also the fact that if an owner is not paying attention to what the tortoise is or isn't eating that's the problem, not the hay. Most everyone here recommends orchard grass hay not Timothy. No one here only recommends hay either. It's a good food source that could be part of a varied diet. It's usually not recommended for babies and is often recommended to have soaked it.
What you are finding is not necessarily a hay problem in my opinion as it is a tortoise owner problem and most of the owners on FB are idiots!
However, if you don't want to feed or recommend hay, that's your right. Others that have no problem with it or sees no problem with it will continue to use and recommend it, that's their right.
I think if People coming on here, are here to learn the proper care. With proper care I don't see hay being a problem. With the kind of tortoises you are dealing with, it could possibly be a problem. But like I said above. It's the owners care or lack of care that is likely the majority of the problem not the hay. Just my opinion.
What you are finding is not necessarily a hay problem in my opinion as it is a tortoise owner problem and most of the owners on FB are idiots!
However, if you don't want to feed or recommend hay, that's your right. Others that have no problem with it or sees no problem with it will continue to use and recommend it, that's their right.
I think if People coming on here, are here to learn the proper care. With proper care I don't see hay being a problem. With the kind of tortoises you are dealing with, it could possibly be a problem. But like I said above. It's the owners care or lack of care that is likely the majority of the problem not the hay. Just my opinion.
I fail to see how hay is the problem here. Hay is an excellent tortoise food for any adult of a grass eating species. I don't understand why you have a problem with feeding hay to tortoises. I've been doing it without any problem for literally decades, and so does everyone else I know. I don't know how you'd provide enough food for a giant species any other way unless you have acres of available pastures and the water and power to farm it.
There is no reason a person can't throw down a flake of dry orchard grass hay for an adult sulcata or SA leopard tortoise and call it good. I've done that for months on end when time or other foods were in short supply. They eat as much as they want daily, and I would drop a new flake as needed. These tortoises laid hundred of fertile eggs that developed into large healthy hatchings, and grew very well into adulthood and went on to reproduce themselves. Some of them are here on this forum.
The tortoise in question here was obviously cared for all wrong, allowed to eat things it shouldn't, offered the wrong type of hay, and apparently ignored and neglected. This is not a hay problem. This is a neglect and/or ignorance problem. Hay is not for babies. Its for grown adults, and Timothy Hay is not the best way to go in my opinion, though large adults can certainly eat it. I don't know why you would blame hay for this problem and take the opinion that hay is not a good food because somebody failed to take proper care of a tortoise in every way.
@wellington
@Tom
The original owner was told "These tortoises eat hay" so for how ever long they attempted to feed hay. This man had NO idea of how much food a tortoise needs but KNOWS they eat hay. So the situation will come up where the tort is not eating but "If he's hungry he'll eat the hay" of course this could not be further from the truth. So even when the tort goes to a new owner it is said "They eat hay." So for years 2 tortoises starved because "if their hungry they will eat hay." NOPE.
My point in this situation is ... The ease of feeding hay ruled these torts life's. If they didn't eat it well then they're not hungry. This is because they were told "Hay" and just ran with it, never thinking of any other foods as the "Main" source of nutrients .. again .. "They eat hay."
When a person that already has animals that eat hay and gets a tort and then is told "they eat hay", this is the thing that happens most ... (In my life experiences)
Monday morning: Get up walk the rounds feeding the animals throwing hay here and there for the animals to eat. A flake is thrown into the new torts pen.
Tuesday morning: Get up walk the rounds feeding the animals throwing flakes of hay here and there. When they get to the tort pen there is still 60% of the flake they threw in the day before, so ....."should I throw another one in?" .... "No, I'll wait till tomorrow and see if he eats more."
Wednesday morning: get up walk the rounds feeding the animals throwing flakes here and there. When they get to the tort pen there is STILL some stems sticks and remnants of hay left. So this new tort owner thinks "Must not be hungry, settling in it must be." Then the decision is made to only throw 2 flakes a week into this tort pen, or wait until ALL the hay is gone before throwing more in. So now you have a tort not eating "Hay" so their not hungry, instead of "This tortoise doesn't eat hay" "I need to try something else."
Last try at this .... When someone not familiar with how tortoises eat, how much tortoises eat, how temperature effects the what and when tortoises will eat, how tortoise behavior is, what proper tortoise growth is but is told "They eat hay" it's only going to be bad. They do not have, possess enough information to "Know" what they are doing is wrong. They do not understand Tortoises eat ALOT not ... "They are from the Desert so they don't eat alot or need water."
When you have someone that DOES have animals that eat hay, the routine of those animals becomes what the routine of the tort should be. The cow eats the entire flake so if the tort doesn't well it's just not hungry. When a person has animals that eat hay it is VERY easy to be lazy and treat the tort just like you would a the Horse, Cow, Donkey etc. If a flake of hay was thrown into a horses pen and the next day it was still there .... "O my god I need a vet my Horse is not eating" if a flake of hay is thrown into the tort pen and is still there the next day they DO NOT get that same thought of "Somethings wrong."
I have seen well over 50 tortoises that have been starved because "They eat hay." What I have not seen is 1 single tortoise that is fed a COMPETE diet when they were told "They eat hay." Yes there is the exception of us here on the forum.
In the thread title was "How often do I feed Hay" period. It was clear this was another example of tortoises being fed hay, not a complete diet that includes hay.
In my experience here on this planet is that when a new tort owner is told Hay you are just about guaranteed to have a tort suffering from mal-nutrition shortly. And just so you all know, Yes I do use orchard grass, timothy hay and others as things that are offered to my tortoises but I refuse to use that flake as a determination of "How hungry my tort is." Didn't mean for this to be so long but maybe someone will read this and understand how to feed hay in a responsible fashion.
@Tom
The original owner was told "These tortoises eat hay" so for how ever long they attempted to feed hay. This man had NO idea of how much food a tortoise needs but KNOWS they eat hay. So the situation will come up where the tort is not eating but "If he's hungry he'll eat the hay" of course this could not be further from the truth. So even when the tort goes to a new owner it is said "They eat hay." So for years 2 tortoises starved because "if their hungry they will eat hay." NOPE.
My point in this situation is ... The ease of feeding hay ruled these torts life's. If they didn't eat it well then they're not hungry. This is because they were told "Hay" and just ran with it, never thinking of any other foods as the "Main" source of nutrients .. again .. "They eat hay."
When a person that already has animals that eat hay and gets a tort and then is told "they eat hay", this is the thing that happens most ... (In my life experiences)
Monday morning: Get up walk the rounds feeding the animals throwing hay here and there for the animals to eat. A flake is thrown into the new torts pen.
Tuesday morning: Get up walk the rounds feeding the animals throwing flakes of hay here and there. When they get to the tort pen there is still 60% of the flake they threw in the day before, so ....."should I throw another one in?" .... "No, I'll wait till tomorrow and see if he eats more."
Wednesday morning: get up walk the rounds feeding the animals throwing flakes here and there. When they get to the tort pen there is STILL some stems sticks and remnants of hay left. So this new tort owner thinks "Must not be hungry, settling in it must be." Then the decision is made to only throw 2 flakes a week into this tort pen, or wait until ALL the hay is gone before throwing more in. So now you have a tort not eating "Hay" so their not hungry, instead of "This tortoise doesn't eat hay" "I need to try something else."
Last try at this .... When someone not familiar with how tortoises eat, how much tortoises eat, how temperature effects the what and when tortoises will eat, how tortoise behavior is, what proper tortoise growth is but is told "They eat hay" it's only going to be bad. They do not have, possess enough information to "Know" what they are doing is wrong. They do not understand Tortoises eat ALOT not ... "They are from the Desert so they don't eat alot or need water."
When you have someone that DOES have animals that eat hay, the routine of those animals becomes what the routine of the tort should be. The cow eats the entire flake so if the tort doesn't well it's just not hungry. When a person has animals that eat hay it is VERY easy to be lazy and treat the tort just like you would a the Horse, Cow, Donkey etc. If a flake of hay was thrown into a horses pen and the next day it was still there .... "O my god I need a vet my Horse is not eating" if a flake of hay is thrown into the tort pen and is still there the next day they DO NOT get that same thought of "Somethings wrong."
I have seen well over 50 tortoises that have been starved because "They eat hay." What I have not seen is 1 single tortoise that is fed a COMPETE diet when they were told "They eat hay." Yes there is the exception of us here on the forum.
In the thread title was "How often do I feed Hay" period. It was clear this was another example of tortoises being fed hay, not a complete diet that includes hay.
In my experience here on this planet is that when a new tort owner is told Hay you are just about guaranteed to have a tort suffering from mal-nutrition shortly. And just so you all know, Yes I do use orchard grass, timothy hay and others as things that are offered to my tortoises but I refuse to use that flake as a determination of "How hungry my tort is." Didn't mean for this to be so long but maybe someone will read this and understand how to feed hay in a responsible fashion.
All that still does not rule hay out as a good food source.
It just shows that there are so many ignorant fools out there that doesn't have a clue about tortoises and doesn't have a clue about using the Internet to do research.
That's what we find all the time on this forum about the care of tortoises. That's what this forum is about, educating anyone that will come here on what is the right way.
Instead of saying hay is bad when it isn't, explain that it should not be the only source of food.
It just shows that there are so many ignorant fools out there that doesn't have a clue about tortoises and doesn't have a clue about using the Internet to do research.
That's what we find all the time on this forum about the care of tortoises. That's what this forum is about, educating anyone that will come here on what is the right way.
Instead of saying hay is bad when it isn't, explain that it should not be the only source of food.
A person's ignorance about a particular subject doesn't make that person a fool or an idiot. Once they are told the correct thing to do by someone with knowledge and experience, if they don't follow the advice and continue to do what is obviously not working, then yes, you have yourself a fool or an idiot. My observation. When I joined this forum years ago, I was not an idiot, just ignorant about tortoises. Now I feel glad that sometimes I can actually help someone by offering learned advice.
No, people that don't do research are the fools. It's too easy now to educate ones self. This forum used to be the first thing that would pop up when doing a search for tortoise care. Not sure if it still does. People that come here, are researching and found the forum. Those are not fools.
100% correct .... I COMPLETELY AGREE.
The issue I've seen over and over is that feeding hay becomes the way to feed out of laziness, and ease (which go hand in hand). I just think if people were made to feed other items and learn how torts interact with different variables (Temperature, Different Foods, Stress etc.) tortoise health would improve greatly. I hear ya ... Hay is a nutrient filled source of food that when fed responsibly is a "Fantastic" part of a tort diet. It's just in my experience it is NEVER fed responsibly but fed out of ease and the resulting product is a tort with serious issues.
I had the same issue with feeding "lettuce." I found that if I included the word lettuce when listing foods for new adoptive parents, they eventually used lettuce exclusively because it was easy. So I always listed other greens and never included the 'L' word.
This is exactly what I am trying to say. The life of a "Hay" eating farm animal doesn't exactly correlate to the life a tort needs for a proper life (in my opinion). That word "Hay" carries with it so many .... stereotypes I guess is the word. Even when the Tort owner doesn't have any "Farm Animals" they go to the feed store of "Farm Animals." They get info on all kinds of things that in my opinion are wrong and just another ignorant (about torts) person spewing Bull poo poo. This becomes how a very high percentage of how tort owners. The feed store in the local town even sells Sulcata hatch-lings every year. And who do you think they get there info, food from? .....For years.
