Winter food Issue.

[sulandcata]

Hi everyone. I have two two year old sulcatas and I am having some issues feeding them this year on the winter. I am sorry if this question was posted before I tried looking for one but couldn´t find an answer I was able to understand completly.

Context: Year round they were eating hay and green vegetables when outside but as soon as I bring them in due to change on temperature this week they have stopped eating I am planning on buying some mazuri to get them to eat since that was what I used to introduce hay and never had an issue with mazuri. I have them on a 1.5m x 1.5m enclosure with 2 heat lamps. Right now they are together but feed seperatly on a smaller place that is what I use to take them to the vet when needed.

Question: I dont know how to calculate how much mazuri should I give them depending on their weight so I was wondering how much I need to give them lets say if one is 10 kilos how much dry mazuri should I serve it? I am worried since one of them is still recovering from an accident that caused some damage to the shell and I want him to eat properly so it can recover correctly and should I give a little more food to the one recovering than needed or just the normal need.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

@Tom can answer better to the diet side of things, but few things of note to give a heads up on, they aren’t housed together are they?
tortoise of any species should NEVER be housed in pairs under any circumstances, they’re incredibly territorial, behaviours that look cute to us really aren’t, following one another and sleeping huddled up is all bullying the the tortoise world, you’ll eventually see more extreme signs of aggression. Anyone who tells you pairs are fine, have no idea what they’re talking about. Unfortunately a lot of breeders do this.

Small groups are ok when there’s lots of land and the correct male to female ratio.

Next up in regards to their age, they’re likely still too small to be spending significant amounts of time outdoors like that, and primarily need housing in separate indoor closed chambers. But what size are they actually measuring?

Hopefully this thread I made might be useful to look over! It covers equipment, levels, importance of a closed chamber for younger tortoises(only way to maintain the humidity you need), appropriately maintaining the humidity, substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything and a really handy diet link to check out! If going with a greenhouse, the lower the ceiling height, whilst still allowing for recommended bulb height, the better!

Leopard/sulcata starter

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information below on how I’d personally tackle an indoor starter set up for a leopard/sulcata until they’re bigger. Hopefully it helps give people some ideas!” I know it looks like a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered...

tortoiseforum.org

This gives some examples of closer chamber set ups, obviously bear in mind sizing for a growing sulcata, but hopefully they won’t need it much longer

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

Hopefully they come in handy and Tom will get back to you with some feeding tips

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

How big are they?

 

[sulandcata]

10 and 12 kilos

How big are they?

 

[Maggie3fan]

Hi everyone. I have two two year old sulcatas and I am having some issues feeding them this year on the winter. I am sorry if this question was posted before I tried looking for one but couldn´t find an answer I was able to understand completly.

Context: Year round they were eating hay and green vegetables when outside but as soon as I bring them in due to change on temperature this week they have stopped eating I am planning on buying some mazuri to get them to eat since that was what I used to introduce hay and never had an issue with mazuri. I have them on a 1.5m x 1.5m enclosure with 2 heat lamps. Right now they are together but feed seperatly on a smaller place that is what I use to take them to the vet when needed.

Question: I dont know how to calculate how much mazuri should I give them depending on their weight so I was wondering how much I need to give them lets say if one is 10 kilos how much dry mazuri should I serve it? I am worried since one of them is still recovering from an accident that caused some damage to the shell and I want him to eat properly so it can recover correctly and should I give a little more food to the one recovering than needed or just the normal need.

They really need to be housed separately for their own health...but in the mean time...you can judge how much to feed by this...is he leaving any food? Does he just smear it around? If he's not leaving any food, start adding a little until he leaves some...see how it works...welcome

here is the care sheet recommended by TFO...

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

 

[Maggie3fan]

10 and 12 kilos

24 and 26 pounds

 

[Tom]

Hi everyone. I have two two year old sulcatas and I am having some issues feeding them this year on the winter. I am sorry if this question was posted before I tried looking for one but couldn´t find an answer I was able to understand completly.

Context: Year round they were eating hay and green vegetables when outside but as soon as I bring them in due to change on temperature this week they have stopped eating I am planning on buying some mazuri to get them to eat since that was what I used to introduce hay and never had an issue with mazuri. I have them on a 1.5m x 1.5m enclosure with 2 heat lamps. Right now they are together but feed seperatly on a smaller place that is what I use to take them to the vet when needed.

Question: I dont know how to calculate how much mazuri should I give them depending on their weight so I was wondering how much I need to give them lets say if one is 10 kilos how much dry mazuri should I serve it? I am worried since one of them is still recovering from an accident that caused some damage to the shell and I want him to eat properly so it can recover correctly and should I give a little more food to the one recovering than needed or just the normal need.

A few things that should help you:
1. They should never be in pairs. Separate them ASAP.
2. 1.5 meters square is WAYYYY too small for animals this size. They need at least 10x10meters at this size.
3. Heat lamps should not be used over larger tortoises like this. They are ineffective at heating them, and they usually burn the top of the carapace. Same with CHEs.
4. You don't need to calculate how much Mazuri to feed them. Feed them as much food as they will eat every day.
5. They are not eating because they are not being housed correctly and because you moved them into tiny indoor enclosures. Offering different food is not the solution. Correcting the problem is the solution.
6. In your climate, these guys should be living outside year round. They need an insulated and heated night box to sleep in and for colder rainy days. You don't need to brung them in. You need to provide the right kind of shelter forth outside.

Here are two examples of how to do this with safe and effective heating strategies:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome.

 

[sulandcata]

A few things that should help you:
1. They should never be in pairs. Separate them ASAP.
2. 1.5 meters square is WAYYYY too small for animals this size. They need at least 10x10meters at this size.
3. Heat lamps should not be used over larger tortoises like this. They are ineffective at heating them, and they usually burn the top of the carapace. Same with CHEs.
4. You don't need to calculate how much Mazuri to feed them. Feed them as much food as they will eat every day.
5. They are not eating because they are not being housed correctly and because you moved them into tiny indoor enclosures. Offering different food is not the solution. Correcting the problem is the solution.
6. In your climate, these guys should be living outside year round. They need an insulated and heated night box to sleep in and for colder rainy days. You don't need to brung them in. You need to provide the right kind of shelter forth outside.

Here are two examples of how to do this with safe and effective heating strategies:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome.

Hi will address 1 by 1 I know you are the expert on this site and my idea is not to antagonize you but I do have some limitations and questions regarding what you said right now the most important one is the one of food since the winter catch me by sorprise with one extra turtle and no job.
1. I gave one away due to that knowledge of no pairing (from where I am is standard practice so a lot of the people with knowledge told me it was ok when I bought them) to someone that I verified say the same things as people on here 3 months later I got it back with a damaged shell and that person didnt want it anymore after the accident so I CAN´T SEPERATE THEM NOW since I wasn´t ready to have two tortoise again. I already have the space to seperate them later but right now it is being use by me elder dog I will separate them when my dog passes.
2 The size I made using instructions from this forum and is only for cold temperature normally they are on a bigger place and 10m x 10m is not viable in a city so I do what I can with that however even saying that I do have a bigger place when they are adults that is 20m x 14 but like I mention before that I can only give them that space when my dog passes.
3. That I can take care of I turned off the lamps but I am worried of the temp since it will be 30 F tonight.
5. Thay never stopped eating them before even in a smaller setup and having food togother so can you explain what could have changed from then and now since while I was building the current inside enclousre they were eating in a tiny 25 galon enclosure during winter (eating not living) so I was wondering what is different now?
6 That was the plan but I lost my job and had to improvise and looking at the links those heated enclosure the first 1 is smaller than what I have and the second is a little bigger if I read correctly it is 2ftx8ft so I am not sure what is the issue?

This one is the important one and once again I am not trying to antagonize but this one I completly dont understand why I dont need to calculate.
4. I dont understand why I dont need to calculate because I used mazuri when they were smaller and if mazuri was dry they ate 30 pellets each if it was wet they ate 50 or almost double if I give them as much as they wanted and with hay I have the same issue if it is wet they eat more than if it is dry and lettuce they eat 3 lettuce each before leaving the food but if give them broccoli kale or other green they ate different portions the issue there is when calculating calories the amount of food they ate is normally not the same so that is why I want to calculate so I can know how much calories should I give I know I made a mistake with not calculating calories on hay since that one is easy for most herbivores but that is why I want to know how much to feed them because even giving the same food they consistently eat different amount of calories also they eat more of they are able to see each other even tru a chicken fence.
So basically I want to know how much mazuri to feed them so they dont 1 over eat and became fat a problem I actually had before with one of them and to know how much extra calories I should give the one one with the healing shell.

 

[ryan57]

Hi will address 1 by 1 I know you are the expert on this site and my idea is not to antagonize you but I do have some limitations and questions regarding what you said right now the most important one is the one of food since the winter catch me by sorprise with one extra turtle and no job.
1. I gave one away due to that knowledge of no pairing (from where I am is standard practice so a lot of the people with knowledge told me it was ok when I bought them) to someone that I verified say the same things as people on here 3 months later I got it back with a damaged shell and that person didnt want it anymore after the accident so I CAN´T SEPERATE THEM NOW since I wasn´t ready to have two tortoise again. I already have the space to seperate them later but right now it is being use by me elder dog I will separate them when my dog passes.
2 The size I made using instructions from this forum and is only for cold temperature normally they are on a bigger place and 10m x 10m is not viable in a city so I do what I can with that however even saying that I do have a bigger place when they are adults that is 20m x 14 but like I mention before that I can only give them that space when my dog passes.
3. That I can take care of I turned off the lamps but I am worried of the temp since it will be 30 F tonight.
5. Thay never stopped eating them before even in a smaller setup and having food togother so can you explain what could have changed from then and now since while I was building the current inside enclousre they were eating in a tiny 25 galon enclosure during winter (eating not living) so I was wondering what is different now?
6 That was the plan but I lost my job and had to improvise and looking at the links those heated enclosure the first 1 is smaller than what I have and the second is a little bigger if I read correctly it is 2ftx8ft so I am not sure what is the issue?

This one is the important one and once again I am not trying to antagonize but this one I completly dont understand why I dont need to calculate.
4. I dont understand why I dont need to calculate because I used mazuri when they were smaller and if mazuri was dry they ate 30 pellets each if it was wet they ate 50 or almost double if I give them as much as they wanted and with hay I have the same issue if it is wet they eat more than if it is dry and lettuce they eat 3 lettuce each before leaving the food but if give them broccoli kale or other green they ate different portions the issue there is when calculating calories the amount of food they ate is normally not the same so that is why I want to calculate so I can know how much calories should I give I know I made a mistake with not calculating calories on hay since that one is easy for most herbivores but that is why I want to know how much to feed them because even giving the same food they consistently eat different amount of calories also they eat more of they are able to see each other even tru a chicken fence.
So basically I want to know how much mazuri to feed them so they dont 1 over eat and became fat a problem I actually had before with one of them and to know how much extra calories I should give the one one with the healing shell.

There is a reason why most people on the internet and this forum discourage folks from owning a sulcata (zoo animal). There is a space, time and financial commitment required for the sake of the animal. I'm sure you know that.

Maggie is correct -"but in the mean time...you can judge how much to feed by this...is he leaving any food? Does he just smear it around? If he's not leaving any food, start adding a little until he leaves some...see how it works...welcome" That said:

You obviously can read so what does the bag of Mazuri say? You're on the internet so you could have gone to Mazuri's website as well. 10kg is 10,000 so 1% is 100g. Feed each 100-400g daily minus the other food while monitoring what is left over. You cannot overfeed a tortoise really as you can't force feed them.



Tom is absolutely correct about the minimum space that they require. They must be able to walk ALOT...
Mine (almost 60lbs @ 2yrs 10mo) in the photos walked for about 1.5 miles this afternoon. Our little one (about 4lbs) was outside for 2 hours but didn't walk much.

This is about 1/8th of the corn field he discovered which is his favorite place on earth at the moment.

 

[sulandcata]

There is a reason why most people on the internet and this forum discourage folks from owning a sulcata (zoo animal). There is a space, time and financial commitment required for the sake of the animal. I'm sure you know that.

Maggie is correct -"but in the mean time...you can judge how much to feed by this...is he leaving any food? Does he just smear it around? If he's not leaving any food, start adding a little until he leaves some...see how it works...welcome" That said:

You obviously can read so what does the bag of Mazuri say? You're on the internet so you could have gone to Mazuri's website as well. 10kg is 10,000 so 1% is 100g. Feed each 100-400g daily minus the other food while monitoring what is left over. You cannot overfeed a tortoise really as you can't force feed them.

View attachment 383835

Tom is absolutely correct about the minimum space that they require. They must be able to walk ALOT...
Mine (almost 60lbs @ 2yrs 10mo) in the photos walked for about 1.5 miles this afternoon. Our little one (about 4lbs) was outside for 2 hours but didn't walk much.View attachment 383836
View attachment 383837
This is about 1/8th of the corn field he discovered which is his favorite place on earth at the moment.

Yes I understand and I have tried rehomeing them or trade them for a smaller turtle like a red foot thanks to this forum since whenever I ask something here most of the time I just get you are wrong and a bad owner and not actual adivice on what I can do with my situation but from where I am no one wants them becouse they are males or they have them even in a smaller place than me. The one I tried rehome almost died because of that and I will be honest with you I know that maybe this pain people in here the same way it pains me how fish are kept most of the times and I did fall on the mistake of trusting a sulcata breeder and a store owner when I bought them right now I am just trying to give the best I can with what I have.
In here we dont have the 11kilos mazuri so mazuri diet is hard here most of the time the closest we have is horse pellets I even asked once if I could feed them horse pellets but the answer I got was to separate the tortoise.

 

[sulandcata]

There is a reason why most people on the internet and this forum discourage folks from owning a sulcata (zoo animal). There is a space, time and financial commitment required for the sake of the animal. I'm sure you know that.

Maggie is correct -"but in the mean time...you can judge how much to feed by this...is he leaving any food? Does he just smear it around? If he's not leaving any food, start adding a little until he leaves some...see how it works...welcome" That said:

You obviously can read so what does the bag of Mazuri say? You're on the internet so you could have gone to Mazuri's website as well. 10kg is 10,000 so 1% is 100g. Feed each 100-400g daily minus the other food while monitoring what is left over. You cannot overfeed a tortoise really as you can't force feed them.

View attachment 383835

Tom is absolutely correct about the minimum space that they require. They must be able to walk ALOT...
Mine (almost 60lbs @ 2yrs 10mo) in the photos walked for about 1.5 miles this afternoon. Our little one (about 4lbs) was outside for 2 hours but didn't walk much.View attachment 383836
View attachment 383837
This is about 1/8th of the corn field he discovered which is his favorite place on earth at the moment.

Forgot to mention thank you for the info I wasn´t able to read them since the place I got the mazuri pellets they sell them on a plastic bag portioned in 500 grams and it didnt´t occur to me to go directly to the page also the zoo that is near me does have sulcata like you mention but they are on a smaller place than where I have them on summer but I do really appreciate the information and I am really grateful to you for answering that question.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Yes I understand and I have tried rehomeing them or trade them for a smaller turtle like a red foot thanks to this forum since whenever I ask something here most of the time I just get you are wrong and a bad owner and not actual adivice on what I can do with my situation but from where I am no one wants them becouse they are males or they have them even in a smaller place than me. The one I tried rehome almost died because of that and I will be honest with you I know that maybe this pain people in here the same way it pains me how fish are kept most of the times and I did fall on the mistake of trusting a sulcata breeder and a store owner when I bought them right now I am just trying to give the best I can with what I have.
In here we dont have the 11kilos mazuri so mazuri diet is hard here most of the time the closest we have is horse pellets I even asked once if I could feed them horse pellets but the answer I got was to separate the tortoise.

Hi! If your tortoises are larger than 12" inches (I guess they are ), then hay and soaked horse pellets can be fed. Prefer orchard and bermuda grass over timothy grass and alfalfa. Not sure if it's viable for you but opuntia pads ("nopales") can be fed a couple of times a week.

 

[ryan57]

You're not a bad owner and all of that. Take them out when you can.

"In here we dont have the 11kilos mazuri so mazuri diet is hard here most of the time"
I was indicating that you have two tortoises 1@10Kg and one @ 12Kg.
1% of Mazuri is between 100g and 120g. That's all. So if you're supposed to feed between 1% and 4% Mazuri I'd start with 1 or 2% which is 220g - 440g per day for both and see if they eat it.

 

[Tom]

Hi will address 1 by 1 I know you are the expert on this site and my idea is not to antagonize you but I do have some limitations and questions regarding what you said right now the most important one is the one of food since the winter catch me by sorprise with one extra turtle and no job.
1. I gave one away due to that knowledge of no pairing (from where I am is standard practice so a lot of the people with knowledge told me it was ok when I bought them) to someone that I verified say the same things as people on here 3 months later I got it back with a damaged shell and that person didnt want it anymore after the accident so I CAN´T SEPERATE THEM NOW since I wasn´t ready to have two tortoise again. I already have the space to seperate them later but right now it is being use by me elder dog I will separate them when my dog passes.
2 The size I made using instructions from this forum and is only for cold temperature normally they are on a bigger place and 10m x 10m is not viable in a city so I do what I can with that however even saying that I do have a bigger place when they are adults that is 20m x 14 but like I mention before that I can only give them that space when my dog passes.
3. That I can take care of I turned off the lamps but I am worried of the temp since it will be 30 F tonight.
5. Thay never stopped eating them before even in a smaller setup and having food togother so can you explain what could have changed from then and now since while I was building the current inside enclousre they were eating in a tiny 25 galon enclosure during winter (eating not living) so I was wondering what is different now?
6 That was the plan but I lost my job and had to improvise and looking at the links those heated enclosure the first 1 is smaller than what I have and the second is a little bigger if I read correctly it is 2ftx8ft so I am not sure what is the issue?

This one is the important one and once again I am not trying to antagonize but this one I completly dont understand why I dont need to calculate.
4. I dont understand why I dont need to calculate because I used mazuri when they were smaller and if mazuri was dry they ate 30 pellets each if it was wet they ate 50 or almost double if I give them as much as they wanted and with hay I have the same issue if it is wet they eat more than if it is dry and lettuce they eat 3 lettuce each before leaving the food but if give them broccoli kale or other green they ate different portions the issue there is when calculating calories the amount of food they ate is normally not the same so that is why I want to calculate so I can know how much calories should I give I know I made a mistake with not calculating calories on hay since that one is easy for most herbivores but that is why I want to know how much to feed them because even giving the same food they consistently eat different amount of calories also they eat more of they are able to see each other even tru a chicken fence.
So basically I want to know how much mazuri to feed them so they dont 1 over eat and became fat a problem I actually had before with one of them and to know how much extra calories I should give the one one with the healing shell.

I'm not feeling antagonized by your questions at all. It's good that you ask questions. Please always feel free to ask your questions.

1. You need to figure out a way to separate them now. Not later. It is doing harm to them being housed as a pair. It may not be convenient, cheap, or fun, but it is what the animals in your care need right now. It's sad that the person you gave one to did not take proper care of it, but that is one person. There are millions of people in Mexico. Find someone else. It may take a few days, but try.
2. Nowhere on this site does it say that 1.5x1.5 meters is an okay size to house two 10-12K tortoises. That is an okay size for a heated night box, but not okay for them to live in full time day and night. If you don't have the space for the animals, you need to give them to someone who does. Not someone who won't take care of them, but someone who will. I've spent a lot of time in Mexico. There are some wonderful people there and there are som bad people there, just like here and everywhere else in the world. Find a good person or family to take them. Share what you've learned here. The needs of these animals don't change because you are low on money or don't have space. They need what they need. Their lack of appetite is telling you that their needs are not being met. If any person is unable to meet the needs of any animal in their care, they need to get it into a home that can meet the needs ASAP.
3. They must be kept warm at night. Heat lamps are not a good way to do it, so you need to find a safer way, but don't let them get cold while you are figuring it out. Keep them warm with a space heater, hot water bottles, whatever you can figure out. It gets 30F here at night too, and the night boxes I showed you keep them 80F all night with no problem.
4. Tortoises are grazing animals. They should be allowed to eat as much as they want every day. They don't get fat and they don't over eat. The only calculation is what Ryan described. If they eat it all, give more the next day. If they did not eat it all, give them less the next day.
5. There are many possible explanations for why they stopped eating. Too cold, quarters are too small, living as a pair creates huge appetite suppressing stress... Why they ate in small quarters previously really doesn't matter. They are bigger now. Who knows why they tolerated incorrect housing before, but are not tolerating it now? What matters is that they are now telling you that what you are doing isn't working and they need a big change immediately.
6. The links shown are not a place for them to live their lives. Those boxes are for them to sleep in on cold rainy days and during every night. Those boxes should be in large tortoise yards where they can come out and graze and bask in the sun during the day, and then retreat back into their warm boxes every night, or whenever they want.

No one is telling you that you are wrong or that you are a bad owner. We are trying to tell you how to keep your tortoises alive and healthy. Nobody ever said it was cheap or easy to house giant tortoises. You are clearly noticing that you have a problem and you are trying to ask for help and solve the problem. That makes you a good pet owner. Not everyone is able to care for every type of animal, and sometimes the best solution is to give them away. Other times, people can make the necessary changes and keep their animals. A bad pet owner is someone who knows there is a problem, knows what to do about it, and then chooses to do nothing and let the animals suffer. That is not you. Not at all.

 

[sulandcata]

You're not a bad owner and all of that. Take them out when you can.

"In here we dont have the 11kilos mazuri so mazuri diet is hard here most of the time"
I was indicating that you have two tortoises 1@10Kg and one @ 12Kg.
1% of Mazuri is between 100g and 120g. That's all. So if you're supposed to feed between 1% and 4% Mazuri I'd start with 1 or 2% which is 220g - 440g per day for both and see if they eat it.

yes thank you I already started with that amount and I will get more into the answer of ryan since the easiest way to do that is horse pellets I am only worried there about fibre intake since horse pellets I have seen caps at 7% and for sulcata at least mazuri is at 18%

 

[sulandcata]

I'm not feeling antagonized by your questions at all. It's good that you ask questions. Please always feel free to ask your questions.

1. You need to figure out a way to separate them now. Not later. It is doing harm to them being housed as a pair. It may not be convenient, cheap, or fun, but it is what the animals in your care need right now. It's sad that the person you gave one to did not take proper care of it, but that is one person. There are millions of people in Mexico. Find someone else. It may take a few days, but try.
2. Nowhere on this site does it say that 1.5x1.5 meters is an okay size to house two 10-12K tortoises. That is an okay size for a heated night box, but not okay for them to live in full time day and night. If you don't have the space for the animals, you need to give them to someone who does. Not someone who won't take care of them, but someone who will. I've spent a lot of time in Mexico. There are some wonderful people there and there are som bad people there, just like here and everywhere else in the world. Find a good person or family to take them. Share what you've learned here. The needs of these animals don't change because you are low on money or don't have space. They need what they need. Their lack of appetite is telling you that their needs are not being met. If any person is unable to meet the needs of any animal in their care, they need to get it into a home that can meet the needs ASAP.
3. They must be kept warm at night. Heat lamps are not a good way to do it, so you need to find a safer way, but don't let them get cold while you are figuring it out. Keep them warm with a space heater, hot water bottles, whatever you can figure out. It gets 30F here at night too, and the night boxes I showed you keep them 80F all night with no problem.
4. Tortoises are grazing animals. They should be allowed to eat as much as they want every day. They don't get fat and they don't over eat. The only calculation is what Ryan described. If they eat it all, give more the next day. If they did not eat it all, give them less the next day.
5. There are many possible explanations for why they stopped eating. Too cold, quarters are too small, living as a pair creates huge appetite suppressing stress... Why they ate in small quarters previously really doesn't matter. They are bigger now. Who knows why they tolerated incorrect housing before, but are not tolerating it now? What matters is that they are now telling you that what you are doing isn't working and they need a big change immediately.
6. The links shown are not a place for them to live their lives. Those boxes are for them to sleep in on cold rainy days and during every night. Those boxes should be in large tortoise yards where they can come out and graze and bask in the sun during the day, and then retreat back into their warm boxes every night, or whenever they want.

No one is telling you that you are wrong or that you are a bad owner. We are trying to tell you how to keep your tortoises alive and healthy. Nobody ever said it was cheap or easy to house giant tortoises. You are clearly noticing that you have a problem and you are trying to ask for help and solve the problem. That makes you a good pet owner. Not everyone is able to care for every type of animal, and sometimes the best solution is to give them away. Other times, people can make the necessary changes and keep their animals. A bad pet owner is someone who knows there is a problem, knows what to do about it, and then chooses to do nothing and let the animals suffer. That is not you. Not at all

1 Ok starting today I will separte them one on the outside place with the enclosure and one with the dog the one with the dog heating is satisfied due to boiler position temperatures are low on the top but on the floor with the boiler it is a good temperature. I am assuming due to what has been said that is less of a risk is my assumtion correct?.
2 you are free to take one of them next time you come to mexico since from where I am the store owner told me they were 4 or 5 breeders I talked to 3 of them about the pair thing and they said it was good their words were "if male and female no issue female and female might be issues sometimes (this one actually only one told me about this scenario) male and male one will become submissive and they will be ok with time". So my options to rehome them are those guys or people that have pair on a 2x3 meters(this was the main issue when rehoming) or the want to home it with some Texan dessert tortoise(Gopherus berlandieri). Like I mention most people with some sort of knowledge dont want them because they are males I tried rehoming for months before I was able to find someone that actually say something similar to what you mention.
Regarding the size of living quarters it is a missconception that I expalin on point 6.
3 The only time i let them at that temperature was yesterday night normally the fans help move the hot air produced from the lamps to where the turtles are.
4 Sorry I didnt knew they were that different from aquatic tortoise regarding eating habits is good to know but then this 2 have never been good at eating since forever, still is good to know that. Today I feed them outside with a natural barrier one being in a 2x 10 place and the other on a 4x5 place. However it would still be useful if someone makes a caloric intake needs for tortoise I have the nutrition knowledge on how to make them but not the tortoise knowledge to actually create it.
5. This is normally my biggest issue with the forum normally all answers are you have to do it like this and when asking why the answer is "I dont know but you are doing wrong" so most of the times the answer sound like people just repeating things without knowing why.
6. As per I learn from the breeders I talked here the heated enclosures become their living quarters on the winter so I got the misconception from there I will move the enclosure outside since it is actually the one I was making to be the outside enclousre I need to add a ramp so he can get in there with out the flipping risk. Regarding this I do have a question it is completly made of wood except the control area with the lamps and fans are (no access to tortoise to this area) Is it ok to leave it out of wood or should I add beding since I dont remember seeing bedding on the images from the links?

 

[Tom]

1 Ok starting today I will separte them one on the outside place with the enclosure and one with the dog the one with the dog heating is satisfied due to boiler position temperatures are low on the top but on the floor with the boiler it is a good temperature. I am assuming due to what has been said that is less of a risk is my assumtion correct?.
2 you are free to take one of them next time you come to mexico since from where I am the store owner told me they were 4 or 5 breeders I talked to 3 of them about the pair thing and they said it was good their words were "if male and female no issue female and female might be issues sometimes (this one actually only one told me about this scenario) male and male one will become submissive and they will be ok with time". So my options to rehome them are those guys or people that have pair on a 2x3 meters(this was the main issue when rehoming) or the want to home it with some Texan dessert tortoise(Gopherus berlandieri). Like I mention most people with some sort of knowledge dont want them because they are males I tried rehoming for months before I was able to find someone that actually say something similar to what you mention.
Regarding the size of living quarters it is a missconception that I expalin on point 6.
3 The only time i let them at that temperature was yesterday night normally the fans help move the hot air produced from the lamps to where the turtles are.
4 Sorry I didnt knew they were that different from aquatic tortoise regarding eating habits is good to know but then this 2 have never been good at eating since forever, still is good to know that. Today I feed them outside with a natural barrier one being in a 2x 10 place and the other on a 4x5 place. However it would still be useful if someone makes a caloric intake needs for tortoise I have the nutrition knowledge on how to make them but not the tortoise knowledge to actually create it.
5. This is normally my biggest issue with the forum normally all answers are you have to do it like this and when asking why the answer is "I dont know but you are doing wrong" so most of the times the answer sound like people just repeating things without knowing why.
6. As per I learn from the breeders I talked here the heated enclosures become their living quarters on the winter so I got the misconception from there I will move the enclosure outside since it is actually the one I was making to be the outside enclousre I need to add a ramp so he can get in there with out the flipping risk. Regarding this I do have a question it is completly made of wood except the control area with the lamps and fans are (no access to tortoise to this area) Is it ok to leave it out of wood or should I add beding since I dont remember seeing bedding on the images from the links?

1. I've never used any type of boiler for heating. Unless I was standing there with you assessing and reading temperatures, there is no way I could answer whether or not this is suitable. If the temperature is staying well over 80 degrees in the shelter all the time, and there is nothing unsafe about it, then it should be okay. Housing a tootsie with the dog is a huge risk. Dogs chew up tortoises. Some dogs ignore a tortoise for years and then one day just decide to gnaw on it for no apparent reason. You need to keep them separated.

2. The breeders near you that you've talked to are ignorant and have the wrong info. Guess what... It's the same here. It's the same everywhere. They are wrong and they don't even know it. If you keep on keeping tortoises long enough, you will learn why that info is wrong, as I did, but its much easier to learn it from someone who has already been down that road, so to speak. You got lucky and found this forum, with the correct care info, and that is why what we say is so different than what you see and hear elsewhere.

People everywhere have trouble re-homing large male sulcatas. That is why we try to discourage people from getting them in the first place. Don't give up. Keep looking and keep trying to find the right home for them.

4. The tortoises need to be able to eat all day in the comfort and familiarity of their own enclosure, and they need to be in large enclosures, preferably outdoors at this size. Moving them into a feeding area is not going to work well. They need to be able to walk out of their heated shelter, go eat, maybe bask if its warm and sunny, and then go back in to warm up.

5. If there is no way for us to know the answer to a question, what are we supposed to say? You came here with a problem, and we asked a bunch of questions to try and help you figure out your problem. I've given you several problems that I can see from what you've told me and any of those could be the issue. You can ask "why" at any time about any of the things I tell you. I learned all these things I say the hard way, over several decades, and I can fully explain what works, what doesn't work, why it does or doesn't work and how I know that it does or doesn't work. There is usually no need to type out a 10,000 word explanation for every single question from every single poster, but sometimes more explanation is needed.

6. I make my outdoor night boxes out of wood. I prime and paint the outside with exterior grade paint to try and make them last longer. For sulcatas, I leave the inside completely untreated and I use some dirt on the floor for "substrate". This makes clean up easy with a flat head shovel. I shovel out the "soiled" dirt, and replace it with clean dry dirt from the ground somewhere nearby.

 

[sulandcata]

1. I've never used any type of boiler for heating. Unless I was standing there with you assessing and reading temperatures, there is no way I could answer whether or not this is suitable. If the temperature is staying well over 80 degrees in the shelter all the time, and there is nothing unsafe about it, then it should be okay. Housing a tootsie with the dog is a huge risk. Dogs chew up tortoises. Some dogs ignore a tortoise for years and then one day just decide to gnaw on it for no apparent reason. You need to keep them separated.

2. The breeders near you that you've talked to are ignorant and have the wrong info. Guess what... It's the same here. It's the same everywhere. They are wrong and they don't even know it. If you keep on keeping tortoises long enough, you will learn why that info is wrong, as I did, but its much easier to learn it from someone who has already been down that road, so to speak. You got lucky and found this forum, with the correct care info, and that is why what we say is so different than what you see and hear elsewhere.

People everywhere have trouble re-homing large male sulcatas. That is why we try to discourage people from getting them in the first place. Don't give up. Keep looking and keep trying to find the right home for them.

4. The tortoises need to be able to eat all day in the comfort and familiarity of their own enclosure, and they need to be in large enclosures, preferably outdoors at this size. Moving them into a feeding area is not going to work well. They need to be able to walk out of their heated shelter, go eat, maybe bask if its warm and sunny, and then go back in to warm up.

5. If there is no way for us to know the answer to a question, what are we supposed to say? You came here with a problem, and we asked a bunch of questions to try and help you figure out your problem. I've given you several problems that I can see from what you've told me and any of those could be the issue. You can ask "why" at any time about any of the things I tell you. I learned all these things I say the hard way, over several decades, and I can fully explain what works, what doesn't work, why it does or doesn't work and how I know that it does or doesn't work. There is usually no need to type out a 10,000 word explanation for every single question from every single poster, but sometimes more explanation is needed.

6. I make my outdoor night boxes out of wood. I prime and paint the outside with exterior grade paint to try and make them last longer. For sulcatas, I leave the inside completely untreated and I use some dirt on the floor for "substrate". This makes clean up easy with a flat head shovel. I shovel out the "soiled" dirt, and replace it with clean dry dirt from the ground somewhere nearby.

Thank you for the time and effort on reading my long texts
1.- Yeah the boiler place does reach that temperatuere had to check it before for an other elderly dog I had. If that is the case then I will have to have them together for now since there is no other option other than being with the dog. I understand the issue and reading one of your posts it seems the main problem came until they were adolocent I will try to separate them as soon as possible but right now there is not much I can do to safely separate them. If the problem of pair is worse than tiny enclosure or having them with a dog or having one outside on the cold in a non heated dog house I can´t do the correct thing right now what I need is to choose the one that cause the least harm.
2.- I understand that now but you gotta also understand something the breeders with the bad info have done the same type of work with tortles with at least 1 having tortles for more than 1 human generation and for them you are the one on the wrong I am deciding to trust you over them because of what I know about fishes you do seem to know more of the correct information. So I am saying I have tried to rehome and it wasn´t like you mention a work for a couple of days it was months of looking for someone I know you know your thing that is why I mention if in your next trip you want the tortoise I can give it to you I am confident you can give a better care than I, but it is useless to say "that is why we say don´t get them" after the issue is already at hand. I was lucky to find the forum eventually I was unlucky not to found this forum before I bought them since I did found other forums with other information wich I used to get the tortoises.
3.- This one seems closed I think you already understand the lamps are not directly above them but on a separate chamber used as the control heating system for the enclousre I am assuming since no more things were said about this it is in a correct format.
4.- This one seems closed with the last thing you said I moved my indoor enclosure outside and put a makeshift ramp they are there now both of them since right now I only have one. I also put a makeshift divsion but that one is temporary.
5.- Number 1 of your last post is a good example of what can be said. What I mean is most time is just there is no explanation just do this and thats all. No why is it wrong. I remember reading you trained dogs tell me what is more useful telling the owners what is wrong and just tell the fix or just telling it is wrong because of this reason and you should do this. Which of the two has a more positive output on the long term.
6.- This one seems close I will go to the hardware store right now to get some new bedding to be able to change the soil daily.

 

[sulandcata]

UPDATE: They started eating again with the food change they ignored the hay and greens but the pellets were eated correctly along the day they ate more or less 80 grams one and 120 the other the one they only ate it after I moistening the pellets but the weight was done at dry weight. I left some more but the went into hiding I followed Toms advice and moved my indoor enclosure out and made a makeshif separation they have less space but at least during the night they will be separated the natural barrier of the day was breached so during the day they were together. I know I need to separate them but I dont have an option of doing it right now I will try do it as fast as possible but right now I cant seem to do it. I will go to the hardware store to try to get some cement bricks to create a bigger barrier but I am afraid it will not be enough with out placing them with cement since the have moved a similar barrier before.

 

[Tom]

Thank you for the time and effort on reading my long texts
1.- Yeah the boiler place does reach that temperatuere had to check it before for an other elderly dog I had. If that is the case then I will have to have them together for now since there is no other option other than being with the dog. I understand the issue and reading one of your posts it seems the main problem came until they were adolocent I will try to separate them as soon as possible but right now there is not much I can do to safely separate them. If the problem of pair is worse than tiny enclosure or having them with a dog or having one outside on the cold in a non heated dog house I can´t do the correct thing right now what I need is to choose the one that cause the least harm.
2.- I understand that now but you gotta also understand something the breeders with the bad info have done the same type of work with tortles with at least 1 having tortles for more than 1 human generation and for them you are the one on the wrong I am deciding to trust you over them because of what I know about fishes you do seem to know more of the correct information. So I am saying I have tried to rehome and it wasn´t like you mention a work for a couple of days it was months of looking for someone I know you know your thing that is why I mention if in your next trip you want the tortoise I can give it to you I am confident you can give a better care than I, but it is useless to say "that is why we say don´t get them" after the issue is already at hand. I was lucky to find the forum eventually I was unlucky not to found this forum before I bought them since I did found other forums with other information wich I used to get the tortoises.
3.- This one seems closed I think you already understand the lamps are not directly above them but on a separate chamber used as the control heating system for the enclousre I am assuming since no more things were said about this it is in a correct format.
4.- This one seems closed with the last thing you said I moved my indoor enclosure outside and put a makeshift ramp they are there now both of them since right now I only have one. I also put a makeshift divsion but that one is temporary.
5.- Number 1 of your last post is a good example of what can be said. What I mean is most time is just there is no explanation just do this and thats all. No why is it wrong. I remember reading you trained dogs tell me what is more useful telling the owners what is wrong and just tell the fix or just telling it is wrong because of this reason and you should do this. Which of the two has a more positive output on the long term.
6.- This one seems close I will go to the hardware store right now to get some new bedding to be able to change the soil daily.

1. Having the tortoise with a dog is just as bad as having that two tortoises together. You are risking that tortoises life. Bring the dog inside the house. Crate train the dog and let it out for supervised potty breaks. The dog doesn't need to be in a 27C tortoise house. That is too hot for a dog.

2. Length of time someone has been keeping tortoises the wrong way doesn't mean they know what they are doing. I start keeping them wrong in 1979 and didn't learn better until about 2008. That is a lot of years doing it the old wrong way. I'm glad you are able to discern who to listen to and I hope our info will help you and your tortoises.

3. Closed it is. Lamp aren't a problem if the are not cooking the top of the tortoise, but that seems like a really inefficient way to heat them. If its working for you and the temperatures are correct, I will stop bugging you about it.

6. You don't need anything from the store. You can just use regular dirt that they walk on when they are outside.