Winter worries!

[pippin]

Hi all. Some months ago when we adopted "shelly" our 21 year old female hermanns tortoise you good people set me on the right path and educated me on how to care for her correctly. We initially had her in an indoor set up whilst we made her an open enclosure with a night box (following Tom's example) outside, we are north uk based. Her night box has a 75w arcadia basking flood bulb (switched on when weather is cool/dull and a ceramic thermostatically controlled heater set at 15c It is left open in the day for her to come in and out at will. I close her up at night and switch the light off.
All was going well until this month! The light has been on nearly all day as the weather has been cool and wet. But she keeps leaving her box and I kept finding her digging down in her run in the cold and wet! She also stopped eating despite my best efforts to encourage her.
She has also lost a little weight (because not eating same?)
I have now brought her in and placed her in an inside run as was worried about her getting too cold/wet!(she's not happy as smaller and "differrent ")


I'm soaking her everyday and trying to encourage her to eat, her light is on for her to bask . I was going to bruminate her but don't want to do it if she's not prepared properly! Help!

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I think it is a bit too early to start preparing for brumation. Do you have a chance of bringing her to a indoor set-up?

 

[TheTortoiseking]

I think it is a bit too early to start preparing for brumation. Do you have a chance of bringing her to a indoor set-up?

I agree with The_Four_Toed_Edward

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Hello!
Sometimes tortoises want to brumate, no matter what you are trying to do to prevent it. Probably, they react to sun angles and shorter photoperiod.

Definitely, you should not let tortoise to brumate with food in her guts and in the wet soil.

First, since you brought her inside, keep her warm (22-25C at night) and well hydrated (sounds like you are doing exactly that). Next, you will need bright ambient light to "trick" her that days are long and sunny. Then stop feedings for 2 weeks while continue soaks and only after that start lowering enclosure temperatures.

As you are willing to brumate her - you need to provide perfect conditions for brumation (a dedicated small fridge is the best and safest method). If it's not possible at the moment - you can try a short brumation (2-4 weeks) in a dry and cold place with relatively stable temperature and free of rodents. Probably, basement or non-heated garage are good for this.

This post has step-by-step guides for overwintering tortoises and brumating them:

Tom's Brumation Thread

Every fall we get bombarded here on the forum with all sorts of questions and problems regarding hibernation and tortoises "slowing down" for winter. The purpose of this thread is to talk about all aspects of this subject, to dispel some of the myths and mysteries, and give a "how to" list of...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Tom]

I'm soaking her everyday and trying to encourage her to eat, her light is on for her to bask . I was going to bruminate her but don't want to do it if she's not prepared properly! Help!

The outdoor enclosure with ambient heat control and the basking lamp is fantastic, but in your climate, it may not be enough. The tortoise is telling you that it isn't enough. The indoor enclosure is the way to go in this instance, but it must be large, fully lit and heated properly. Just a basking lap won't be enough. The box outside will help keep the tortoise outside longer into the year, and it will help get the tortoise out earlier each year, but it can't overcome your cold wet weather entirely.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

The outdoor enclosure with ambient heat control and the basking lamp is fantastic, but in your climate, it may not be enough. The tortoise is telling you that it isn't enough. The indoor enclosure is the way to go in this instance, but it must be large, fully lit and heated properly. Just a basking lap won't be enough. The box outside will help keep the tortoise outside longer into the year, and it will help get the tortoise out earlier each year, but it can't overcome your cold wet weather entirely.

Absolutely agree with this being from the uk myself, our temperatures are already getting so cold, especially at night. And the rain/flooding we’re experiencing is truly horrendous this year!
Don’t get me wrong, the outdoor set up is great! Especially your heated box! But I do always advocate for any uk members on the forum to have a good sized indoor set up at the ready, our weather is just so dire that even the most robust night boxes don’t cut it once our weather starts dropping, which gets earlier and earlier each year. For an outdoor situation you need a fully insulated and heated shed here ideally, which understandably isn’t always an option for a lot of people.

I suggest giving this thread I made a read for the indoor set up side of things, goes over correct equipment(heating&lighting), levels, sizing, substrates and more! There’s even a good diet link to check out

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

Don’t panic if this feels a bit of a whirlwind to get your head around if you weren’t prepared to do an indoor set up, I’m happy to walk you through it step by step and there’s so many quick cost effective ways to get the job done! Even if for right now you can’t go as big as the recommended 8x4, we can help advise in you getting something temporarily set up!

 

[pippin]

I think it is a bit too early to start preparing for brumation. Do you have a chance of bringing her to a indoor set-up?

I've moved her indoors and although she dosent like it as it's smaller , I was hoping It would be a temporary solution 7ntil brumination in a couple of weeks.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I've moved her indoors and although she dosent like it as it's smaller , I was hoping It would be a temporary solution 7ntil brumination in a couple of weeks.

Indoors you can try to simulate a sunny day to keep her awake. Use ambient lighting, 5000 to 6500 kelvin LEDs for this. Provide a basking spot. Put these both on a 12 hour on and off schedule, that can be reduced later on as you get closer to brumation. Heating is also important. Use a CHE or a RHP on a thermostat to maintain a stable ambient temperature.

This are all aimed to trick your tortoise into thinking that there is still a period of good whether left and keeping her up.

 

[pippin]

The outdoor enclosure with ambient heat control and the basking lamp is fantastic, but in your climate, it may not be enough. The tortoise is telling you that it isn't enough. The indoor enclosure is the way to go in this instance, but it must be large, fully lit and heated properly. Just a basking lap won't be enough. The box outside will help keep the tortoise outside longer into the year, and it will help get the tortoise out earlier each year, but it can't overcome your cold wet weather entirely.

Thanks Tom. Her box outside was fully insulated and very cozy but for some reason she just kept going outside and burrowing in the wet soil under a plant! I was hoping I could keep her there a little longer then bring her in for a couple of weeks to prepare for brumination. My next dilemma was, do I put her in a shoe box in her outdoor night box (with stat turned down to kick in at below 7c or put her in an unused fridge! ?

 

[pippin]

Absolutely agree with this being from the uk myself, our temperatures are already getting so cold, especially at night. And the rain/flooding we’re experiencing is truly horrendous this year!
Don’t get me wrong, the outdoor set up is great! Especially your heated box! But I do always advocate for any uk members on the forum to have a good sized indoor set up at the ready, our weather is just so dire that even the most robust night boxes don’t cut it once our weather starts dropping, which gets earlier and earlier each year. For an outdoor situation you need a fully insulated and heated shed here ideally, which understandably isn’t always an option for a lot of people.

I suggest giving this thread I made a read for the indoor set up side of things, goes over correct equipment(heating&lighting), levels, sizing, substrates and more! There’s even a good diet link to check out

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

Don’t panic if this feels a bit of a whirlwind to get your head around if you weren’t prepared to do an indoor set up, I’m happy to walk you through it step by step and there’s so many quick cost effective ways to get the job done! Even if for right now you can’t go as big as the recommended 8x4, we can help advise in you getting something temporarily set up!

Thanks for all the info, very helpful! she is now indoors with ambient light and a basking bulb. Do I need to provide fake sunlight if I am stepping her down for brumination? I had intended shorting her days and feeding her less in preparation for it but the weight loss sort of threw me! And when would you recommend brumminating if you think its a little early? And if I put her in a shoe box can I put her back in her insulated night box with thermostatically controlled CHE set at between 5 and 7c ?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Thanks for all the info, very helpful! she is now indoors with ambient light and a basking bulb. Do I need to provide fake sunlight if I am stepping her down for brumination? I had intended shorting her days and feeding her less in preparation for it but the weight loss sort of threw me! And when would you recommend brumminating if you think its a little early? And if I put her in a shoe box can I put her back in her insulated night box with thermostatically controlled CHE set at between 5 and 7c ?

You need to cut her off food before lowering temperatures and shortening photoperiod - she still needs enough warmth to get rid of food leftovers in her guts.

Insulated box can work if it's protected from rodents and moisture. Not only low temperatures a risky for brumation but warm spells aren't good also. During temperature raises she will get into "half-awaken" state, wasting stored nutrients and water without means to replenish them. Hopefully, @Tom can give you better advice in course of action.

 

[pippin]

Absolutely agree with this being from the uk myself, our temperatures are already getting so cold, especially at night. And the rain/flooding we’re experiencing is truly horrendous this year!
Don’t get me wrong, the outdoor set up is great! Especially your heated box! But I do always advocate for any uk members on the forum to have a good sized indoor set up at the ready, our weather is just so dire that even the most robust night boxes don’t cut it once our weather starts dropping, which gets earlier and earlier each year. For an outdoor situation you need a fully insulated and heated shed here ideally, which understandably isn’t always an option for a lot of people.

I suggest giving this thread I made a read for the indoor set up side of things, goes over correct equipment(heating&lighting), levels, sizing, substrates and more! There’s even a good diet link to check out

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

Don’t panic if this feels a bit of a whirlwind to get your head around if you weren’t prepared to do an indoor set up, I’m happy to walk you through it step by step and there’s so many quick cost effective ways to get the job done! Even if for right now you can’t go as big as the recommended 8x4, we can help advise in you getting something temporarily

You need to cut her off food before lowering temperatures and shortening photoperiod - she still needs enough warmth to get rid of food leftovers in her guts.

Insulated box can work if it's protected from rodents and moisture. Not only low temperatures a risky for brumation but warm spells aren't good also. During temperature raises she will get into "half-awaken" state, wasting stored nutrients and water without means to replenish them. Hopefully, @Tom can give you better advice in course of action.

The dilemma I have is I'm not sure she was ever bruminated properly so I'm not sure what is best to do? I thought the reason she was slowing down and not eating the same was because she was sort of instinctively winding down? I'm just worried now that because she's lost weight that it's not safe to brumminate at all?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

They have some "hard-wired" behaviour for winding down. Less based on "calendar" but likely more on temperatures, daylight times, sun angles over horizon and UV exposure. I presume early fall in UK for her is akin to winters in native habitat. That's why she's refusing eating and is searching for a cozy burrow.

As Tom states in his "Brumation thread" you need to make a decision and then follow the plan. You can try to overwinter her this year: boost ambient lights and temperatures and see if she perks up. If she is still winding down - you can try short brumation (2-3 weeks) and then wake her up. While this is not optimal (as she will be awake in the middle of the winter), it's relatively safe (even with some weight loss she won't starve to death). Just make sure that she doesn't eat anything for 2 weeks before lowering temperatures.

How much weight has she lost (and gained through during the summer)?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

You need to cut her off food before lowering temperatures and shortening photoperiod - she still needs enough warmth to get rid of food leftovers in her guts.

Insulated box can work if it's protected from rodents and moisture. Not only low temperatures a risky for brumation but warm spells aren't good also. During temperature raises she will get into "half-awaken" state, wasting stored nutrients and water without means to replenish them. Hopefully, @Tom can give you better advice in course of action.

Hopefully this reply has helped! And hopefully Tom can give you some further info into the brumation prep side of things too

 

[pippin]

OK. Shelly is eating again (not as much but she's eating!) She is moving her food through and urinating ok during her daily soaks. Today we have glorious sunshine! so I have put her in her outside run for some much needed sun for a couple of hours.. I have to keep checking her as instead of staying in her hot frame (glass and wood frame in her run) or basking in the sun on her slate she keeps trying to dig down into the soil in the shade! am I doing the right thing by trying to keep her active for a few weeks more before stopping feeding her and stepping her down? She weighed 1271 in June 1281 in August and now weighs 1248 ?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

If she cooperates with you, then yes - keep feed her and let enjoy warmth and sunshine. If she can stay awake till November it's okay.

However, another UK keeper is slowly preparing her tortoise for brumation in October: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/fridge-hibernation-for-a-spur-thighed-tortoise.207186/

I think if @MaNaAk can share her brumation preparation routine and schedule that could be helpful.

 

[MaNaAk]

Dear @pippin,

I'm going to tag you into Fridge hibernation thread so that you see what I'm doing. You don't need to put your little one in a fridge but at least you can follow what I do week by week. I had to stop Jacky from going into hibernation early by putting her in her enclosure.

Natrah