Have a Zagros Mountain Greek. I was told she was testudo graeca buxtoni. I rarely see posts on this species and have a hard time finding species specific information via the web. Anybody moments are greatly appreciated!
Wondering if my Greek species is rare?
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If you post a pic, someone might be able to tell you if that's what you really have or not.[/i]
I would call that tortoise uncommon in the US pet trade. Not too many hatchlings available per year. There could be a lot more here but just mixed in with other races due to people just breeding all subspecies of greeks together.
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Yes it is uncommon!!! Actually very uncommon, and yes I guarantee it is what he says it is!!! 
I don't know of anyone else that is producing them. Again, there may be some out there but just calling them T graeca.
FYI, the female is going crazy this year. I have 6 hatched so far with more incubating. They are the cutest things ever!!!
I don't know of anyone else that is producing them. Again, there may be some out there but just calling them T graeca. FYI, the female is going crazy this year. I have 6 hatched so far with more incubating. They are the cutest things ever!!!
I don't know how common this subspecies (T. graeca perses or T. graeca buxtoni) is in the American pet trade. I think EgyptianDan would be another person to ask.
BTW - Some authorities consider the Greek tortoises of the Zagros Mountains to be a population of T. graeca ibera, which is readily available.
BTW - Some authorities consider the Greek tortoises of the Zagros Mountains to be a population of T. graeca ibera, which is readily available.
Tim/Robin said:Yes it is uncommon!!! Actually very uncommon, and yes I guarantee it is what he says it is!!!
FYI, the female is going crazy this year. I have 6 hatched so far with more incubating. They are the cutest things ever!!!
Pictures!
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GeoTerraTestudo said:
Who?? References please.
Testudo graeca buxtoni is a widely accepted and acknowledged subspecies. There was talk originally of the tortoises coming from the Zagros mountain region to be a subspecies of their own, Testudo graeca perses, but the DNA did not show a difference to create another subspecies. I can tell you, they are nothing like an Ibera!!
These are the same adults. I got the pair from Danny!!! http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-1946.html
Here are the adults, http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-47876.html
Tim/Robin said:
They certainly are. I haven't really seen anything that questions it, either.
Tim/Robin said:
Sure thing. Here's a scientific article by Iranian scientists Sadeghi and Torki (2012), where they refer to the tortoises of the Zagros Mountains as T. graeca ibera. See attached PDF, or link below:
"Notes on reproduction and conservation of Testudo graeca ibera Pallas 1814 (Reptilia: Testudinidae) in Zagros, western Iran"
That is very interesting. I am more familiar with southern Greeks (T. graeca floweri or T. graeca terrestris) than northern ones. Why do some folks consider T. graeca buxtoni/perses to be distinct from T. graeca ibera?
Saw these threads. Simply beautiful!
Tim, I found a paper that supports what you were saying on genetic grounds (Parham et al. 2006, attached).
The paper argues that there has been taxonomic inflation ("over-splitting") in Testudo graeca, and finds that there should be only 6 subspecies of T. graeca, not 11. Thus, it finds that T. graeca nikolskii should be considered synonymous with T. graeca ibera. It also finds that T. graeca perses should be considered synonymous with T. graeca buxtoni.
However, it also concluded that T. graeca ibera and T. graeca buxtoni were in different clades, and therefore belonged in different subspecies, as they are now.
I'm still curious, though, as to how different they are when you observe them. Please enlighten me.
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GeoTerraTestudo said:
In the very first paragraph of this very article it reads "We realize that the nomenclature of southwest Asian tortoises is in flux, as there seems
not to be a recognized consensus as yet; here we use the conventional taxonomy of the older literature." Sadeghi and Torki admit that there is newer taxonomy information available.
As far as I know, am I admit I am no expert, T. g. perses does not exist. They grouped that previous subspecies with T. g. buxtoni, as you suggest.
I do not own any T g ibera! So I really cannot delve in to great detail about the difference. The obvious on is size!! My adult male is barely 5 inches. My adult female is barely 7 inches. I know T g ibera are known for growing much larger. Their rear marginal scutes seem to flare out more than any T g ibera I have seen.
I see. Well, they certainly are handsome!
How about their care and keeping? Are T. graeca buxtoni as tolerant of cold and dry enviroments as other northern Testudo species and subspecies? Do they brumate?
How about their care and keeping? Are T. graeca buxtoni as tolerant of cold and dry enviroments as other northern Testudo species and subspecies? Do they brumate?
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Accounts/crm_5_000_checklist_v5_2012.pdf
This is the most current version of taxonomy as released by the Turtle Taxonomy Working Group. The list of the Testudo graeca taxonomy begins on page 000.282 with some notes on these issues written on page 000.302-303.
Previous versions of taxonomy follow, in case you wish to follow the changes over the last 5 years and their notes on such:
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Accounts/crm_5_000_checklist_v4_2011.pdf (Notes on page 000.218)
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Accounts/crm_5_000_checklist_v3_2010.pdf (Notes on page 000.140 - specifically on buxtoni)
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Accounts/crm_5_000_checklist_v2_2009.pdf (Notes on page 000.064)
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Accounts/crm_5_000_checklist_v1_2008.pdf (No specific notes on Testudo graeca)
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Turtle_Taxonomy_Working_Group_2007b.pdf (Notes on pages 184-185)
This is the most current version of taxonomy as released by the Turtle Taxonomy Working Group. The list of the Testudo graeca taxonomy begins on page 000.282 with some notes on these issues written on page 000.302-303.
Previous versions of taxonomy follow, in case you wish to follow the changes over the last 5 years and their notes on such:
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Accounts/crm_5_000_checklist_v4_2011.pdf (Notes on page 000.218)
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Accounts/crm_5_000_checklist_v3_2010.pdf (Notes on page 000.140 - specifically on buxtoni)
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Accounts/crm_5_000_checklist_v2_2009.pdf (Notes on page 000.064)
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Accounts/crm_5_000_checklist_v1_2008.pdf (No specific notes on Testudo graeca)
http://www.iucn-tftsg.org/wp-content/uploads/file/Articles/Turtle_Taxonomy_Working_Group_2007b.pdf (Notes on pages 184-185)
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theTurtleRoom said:
Wow! Mr. Turtle Room, thanks for sharing this info!
theTurtleRoom said:
Nice! Okay, so here is the currently official taxonomy for Testudo species.
Greek tortoise (Testudo graeca):
01) T. g. graeca
02) T. g. armeniaca
03) T. g. buxtoni
04) T. g. cyrenaica
05) T. g. ibera
06) T. g. marokkensis
07) T. g. nabeulensis
08) T. g. soussensis
09) T. g. terrestris
10) T. g. zarudnyi
Egyptian tortoise (Testudo kleinmanni):
No accepted subspecies
Marginated tortoise (Testudo marginata):
No accepted subspecies
Hermann tortoise (Testudo hermanni, or Chersine hermanni - which I don't buy):
01) T. h. hermanni
02) T. h. boettgeri
Steppe tortoise (Testudo horsfieldii, or Agrionemys horsfieldii - which I don't buy):
01) T. h. horsfieldii
02) T. h. bogdanovi
03) T. h. kazachstanica
04) T. h. kuznetzovi
05) T. h. rustamovi
06) T. h. terbishi
I think a lot of those subspecies in the Greek and steppe tortoises are based on morphology, so genetic studies will probably shorten those lists soon. Both species probably only have half that many subspecies. Genetic studies will probably also get rid of the alternative genus names. But for now, it's good to know what the accepted taxonomy is. Thank you!
This is one of my favorite resources. They update it Dec. 31st each year. Genetic studies are being done throughout the Testudo genus. It will be interesting to see how things are sorted out.
The alternate genera are due there being three monophyletic clades within the "traditional" Testudo genus. I've mentioned in another thread elsewhere about the usage of the "subgenus", which has become useful in the Chelodina genus. The use of the subgenus enables one to separate monophyletic clades within a genus, while still demonstrating that they are closely related enough to be within a genus. I would like to see that use in this case. It would leave all 5 species in the same genus, but the first three you listed would then be listed under the (Testudo) subgenus. the other two could be placed within one or two subgenera. I think its a great compromise that adds additional clarity to the relationships between the species within the genus.
Reading the notes written by this group of great chelonian minds are always helpful in understanding why they've made the decisions they have. There are always those who disagree with the lists published by the Turtle Taxonomy Working Group, but I feel like their lists are well-thought-out, well-explained, and not reactive to the newest data. They take time to discuss and assess the new evidence before making changes.
The alternate genera are due there being three monophyletic clades within the "traditional" Testudo genus. I've mentioned in another thread elsewhere about the usage of the "subgenus", which has become useful in the Chelodina genus. The use of the subgenus enables one to separate monophyletic clades within a genus, while still demonstrating that they are closely related enough to be within a genus. I would like to see that use in this case. It would leave all 5 species in the same genus, but the first three you listed would then be listed under the (Testudo) subgenus. the other two could be placed within one or two subgenera. I think its a great compromise that adds additional clarity to the relationships between the species within the genus.
Reading the notes written by this group of great chelonian minds are always helpful in understanding why they've made the decisions they have. There are always those who disagree with the lists published by the Turtle Taxonomy Working Group, but I feel like their lists are well-thought-out, well-explained, and not reactive to the newest data. They take time to discuss and assess the new evidence before making changes.
GeoTerraTestudo said:
I would like to know this as well.
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My adults do not tolerate cooling much. I have to watch the male carefully in the winter months or he will get a runny nose. I don't think they would tolerate it. I do not brumate mine, but I am not an advocate for brumating captive tortoises.
Interesting. Must not be that cold where they're from, then. Thanks for the info!
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colatoise said:
Here are this years hatchlings!!!
Tim/Robin said:
Your tortoises are active all year and still produce?How long you been breeding them?Have you seen any changes in them by not hibernateing them?Some say if you don't hibernate them it causes health issues and shorter life others say it doesn't effect them at all what's your take on it?
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