humidity not necessary

[kball]

They spend most of there time in HUMID burrows in the wild they only come out when it's cool enough for them to feel comfortable

 

[FLINTUS]

Not according to my research. I've been watching the temperatures in areas near where sulcatas actually occur and night temps seldom drop below the 70s. Still, this info is flawed because those temperatures are being measured in weather stations 6 feet (2 meter) above the surface of the ground. Unless there is an unknown to science species of flying tortoise, these temps don't carry much relevance for a species that spends 95% to 98% of it life underground. Again your argument is based on what you speculate happens in the wild. My argument is based on what actually really happens every day in my own enclosures.

And these weather stations will be in cities generally, not in the middle of nowhere. A lot of their range will get to 45 or so at night. Meteorologists and geographers generally will tell you that deserts and open savannahs lose a lot of heat at night. No need for speculation on this; It is a fact.

 

[Abdulla6169]

And these weather stations will be in cities generally, not in the middle of nowhere. A lot of their range will get to 45 or so at night. Meteorologists and geographers generally will tell you that deserts and open savannahs lose a lot of heat at night. No need for speculation on this; It is a fact.

I live in the desert, the Empty Quarter. In summer we get lows of 80 F with HIGH humidity.

 

[FLINTUS]

I live in the desert, the Empty Quarter. In summer we get lows of 80 F with HIGH humidity.

How warm is it during the day?

 

[FLINTUS]

Again I disagree completely. You think that during the course of 3-4 months of rain, in hot weather, under impenetrable thickets of vegetation on damp ground humidity does not reach and stay at 80% in the wild? I think it does. I think it is probably much higher than 80% on the ground in those thickets. According the the man who lives there and studies the area it is higher than 80%.

And no, the shell does not become too dense or too heavy when housed in these conditions. Why would you even make such a ridiculous claim to me? I have raised literally hundreds of them this way and others have raised hundreds more, and not a one has a shell that is too dense or too heavy. Do you have even a single tortoise that you have raised this way with a shell that is too dense or too heavy? Or have you not ever raised a sulcata this way? What evidence do you have to back up the claim that 80% humidity cause any such malady? I have hundreds of little bits of evidence running around to prove that in fact, 80% humidity does NOT cause thickening of the carapace.

Yes red foots are prone to shell rot in wet environments. Sulcatas are not prone to shell rot in any environment, and no one here is suggesting sulcatas be kept in wet conditions at any time. Even with high humidity, conditions in my closed chambers are relatively dry on top.

Yet again you are speculating about what you think happens in the wild, and yet again, there is no speculation on my part about the facts that I have been witnessing first hand for more than 6 years right in front of me.

I'm sure under fresh vegetation it does, but the rest of the year, no chance. Even when we get heavy rain here in England, we have areas that don't get that high, and we have much less evaporation than in a desert.
The Tortoise Trust-and no, I don't agree with all of what they have to say, I think they are too far in the dry direction personally- have v.obvious photos of the keratin becoming too dense, on a number of tortoises.
I agree with you about sulcatas not being prone to shell rot, but I still believe they must have time to dry off. Conditions are that way in the wild-humid burrows, dryish-for most of the year- surface.
I'm not saying your method doesn't work-it evidently does for you-, but I do believe that they can be raised more dry, in a, IMO, more natural environment.

 

[FLINTUS]

Neither you, nor I know what the rainfall is in the actual areas where sulcatas occur. I think Tomas would have a closer idea than either of us, but again, here we are debating about what may or may not be happening in the wild. I KNOW what happens in my captive environments.

As I said, I'll try to get some data for you from western Kenya, which is a very different area to Senegal, when I go this summer.

 

[Abdulla6169]

How warm is it during the day?

104 F (minimum), 118 F (maximum). That's in the summer months. In winter:

 

[FLINTUS]

I don't agree. Not with any of this post. I believe these temps ARE what they get in the wild when you get underground and away from the surface extremes of day time highs and night time lows. My burrow temps here in summer, which simulates their temps over there in their winter, tell me so. Their summers are even hotter, day and night, so the burrow temps should be even higher than what I get here. And there is NO variation in my burrow temps through out the day and night. In fact there is only 1 or 2 degrees of variation throughout the entire summer.

What makes you think otherwise, and what is exfoliation in regards to this discussion? That is something my wife talks about on her face...

Yeah, reading this back, I should have said the surface temperatures. Burrows are more likely to retain warmth, but when the tortoises do go on the surface, temperatures will be lower.
Exfoliation in this context, also known as onion-skin weathering of rocks, is, to put simply, the contraction, and expansion of rocks causing stress and then the outer layers to peel away. Typical of regions where Sulcatas can be found. It is caused by big changes in temperature between day and night,

 

[FLINTUS]

104 F (minimum), 118 F (maximum). That's in the summer months. In winter:
View attachment 111512

Cheers for that, that's still a decent drop at night. Also, Abu Dhabi kind of inverses the concept of an urban heat island, which means that the human impact upon the weather isn't a true reflection of a desert's climate.

 

[FLINTUS]

Not true again. I used to use a night time drop with mine down into the high 60s or low 70s, back when I used to follow the advice to keep them dry. THey did not do fine, and they DID pyramid.

Yes, but what was the rest of your care back then? I would guess it wasn't as good as it is now.

 

[Abdulla6169]

Cheers for that, that's still a decent drop at night. Also, Abu Dhabi kind of inverses the concept of an urban heat island, which means that the human impact upon the weather isn't a true reflection of a desert's climate.

That's the weather in the desert. I live a distance from the city (on a neighboring island actually). That's the weather we get, exactly the same. It's hot and humid. Same temperature. It's a few degrees Celsius cooler inland during the summer.

 

[FLINTUS]

All false premises here. Based on incorrect speculation of what happens in the wild. My climate is very similar to the Mediterranean climate. Tortoises kept outside here will pyramid if tremendous attention is not paid to humidity and temperatures when they are small and growing a lot.

When kept dry, the temperatures do not matter as far as pyramiding is concerned. If kept dry (meaning low humidity and low hydration) they will pyramid regardless of temperatures. Again I have living proof of this, while you have speculation.

They don't "experience" 9 months of dry conditions in the wild because they are UNDERGROUND where it is not dry, or hot , or cold.

The only correct assertion in this whole post is that cold temps with high humidity can cause respiratory infections.

Indeed it is. And do your tortoises not do OK once they are outside? They look pretty good to me. And you know what that is? It's having a dryish surface, with variations in surface temperatures, but humid burrows to go into. Offering the option of two habitats, as they'd have in the wild.
I don't disagree with having the babies in a high humidity environment for the first few months btw, as this is what they'd experience in the wild. Perhaps we need to define low humidity and high humidity more, I'm talking around 45-50% relative humidity on the surface, and around 75% in burrows.
No they don't experience every minute of those 9 months 'dry', but even the burrows will be lower humidity, and when they get on the surface, it will be relatively speaking, 'dry.'

 

[Juan V]

Not worth the effort, I'm out.

Looks like I can't delete the photos.

Top two are are Juan's raised the exact same way you are describing: temp swings and no humidity.

Bottom is mine, similar sized, raised at 90% humidity.

I Never said NO humidity. I use lower humidity values but not 0%!!! And besides that i soak them every once in a while and they have a plate that they use to soak themselves whenever they feel the need, which is a correct aproach in my opinion. Avoid them from drying out. Let them chose when they want to be wet. And they go inside the water a lot!!

 

[Juan V]

And this is another question. So you rise the torts until they reach 20cm (200mm) in size, but when you get them out of their hot humid enclosure into the drier "real life" enclosure. Do they not suffer? The conditions in which they will be after will be very different. Wont they?
Ill find a picture of a fully grown sulcata that was raised in dry environment and that currently never uses his heat box in winter . he just lives the mild mediterranean winter in the cold.

 

[FLINTUS]

That's the weather in the desert. I live a distance from the city (on a neighboring island actually). That's the weather we get, exactly the same. It's hot and humid. Same temperature. It's a few degrees Celsius cooler inland during the summer.

I won't speculate as I guess it depends on where the weather station for your readings is, but as I said, Abu Dhabi is much cooler, and more humid-due to vegetation planted up-, than the surrounding landscape.

 

[Abdulla6169]

I won't speculate as I guess it depends on where the weather station for your readings is, but as I said, Abu Dhabi is much cooler, and more humid-due to vegetation planted up-, than the surrounding landscape.

What do you mean by vegetation planted up? Trees? Can you be more specific?

 

[FLINTUS]

Just generally, Abu Dhabi is meant to have a bit of greenery in the suburbs in particular, which draws moisture out of the air, and therefore the suburbs actually have higher temperatures than the inner city as you said.
It is a very out of place city though, and not really the best example for climatic data for desert diurnal cycles. You will have more cloud cover over Abu Dhabi than in the desert, and a lot more greenhouse gases produced, which 'trap' the heat in at night

 

[Abdulla6169]

Just generally, Abu Dhabi is meant to have a bit of greenery in the suburbs in particular, which draws moisture out of the air, and therefore the suburbs actually have higher temperatures than the inner city as you said.
It is a very out of place city though, and not really the best example for climatic data for desert diurnal cycles. You will have more cloud cover over Abu Dhabi than in the desert, and a lot more greenhouse gases produced, which 'trap' the heat in at night

There are more trees and greenery in the city... We have very few clouds in the summer, even in the city. Just heat and more heat. In winter I've seen the greenhouse gases play a pivotal role in keeping the city warmer. In the summer not so much, I do think it's even noticeable.

 

[Juan V]

They spend most of there time in HUMID burrows in the wild they only come out when it's cool enough for them to feel comfortable

These burrows are not that humid. They cant be! If you could find easily a 90% humid environment in a desert you'd get a f**ck**g rainforest!!

 

[Abdulla6169]

These burrows are not that humid. They cant be! If you could find easily a 90% humid environment in a desert you'd get a f**ck**g rainforest!!

The burrows are deep and the tortoise does urinate in the burrows to make them humid (just assuming).