humidity not necessary

motero

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All Sulcatas and Leopard tortoises I have raised and am still raising(about 10), Grow fast and smooth in their indoors winter hot humid closed chambers. I toss them in the hot dry yard over the summer months and they practically stop growing. Diet does not change. I am going to get sprinklers on a timer for this coming summer and have them go off a few times a day. So I think humidity and hydration is very important.
 

johnandjade

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wow!!! im totaly new to keeping torts however..... i would bet my right arm on advice from members here, givin the fact that they have tryed and tested and have proof on best care?! i would (and do) assume the THE TORTOISE FOURM , was and is monitored by people who have a passion and strive for best care and conditions? mistakes i have made have been corrected, not criticised and judged.... trust in advice from the pros! thats why this fourm was set up.
 
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wow!!! im totaly new to keeping torts however..... i would bet my right arm on advice from members here, givin the fact that they have tryed and tested and have proof on best care?! i would (and do) assume the THE TORTOISE FOURM , was and is monitored by people who have a passion and strive for best care and conditions? mistakes i have made have been corrected, not criticised and judged.... trust in advice from the pros! thats why this fourm was set up.
A couple of books I've read have also recommended this forum.
Sulcata and leopard tortoise care by -firstname- Clinton , for example.
 

FLINTUS

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is it easy to find sulcata in the wild ?
Not at all, especially since the purpose of the trip is not for chelonia-it's building a classroom at a rural school-, but due to the remoteness of the place, hopefully I'll be able to find some burrows, that while they may not be of sulcatas, it should give us a difference of the change between surface and burrow conditions.
And as Tom said, a lot more research is needed on the species, especially considering how commonly kept it is. For me, as much as Tomas does some fantastic work, most of it from what I've seen has been done in Senegal, and other countries in that region of west Africa, which statistically, receives more rainfall than a lot of the rest of the range. And I guess that's the problem here, we are talking about a huge range of localities. I do wonder if the localities you guys in The States have are different to European bloodlines, where the dry method has worked much more often-I will admit, that with one or two exceptions, very few major breeders in N.America have managed to consistently raise dry, smooth tortoises. Perhaps your bloodlines naturally come from the wetter areas of the range and in the EU, from the drier areas? Just something I've thought about, as I've done a lot of research on erosa in a similar fashion to this, whose preferred temperatures changes by about 7 degrees Celsius throughout the range. For instance, Kelly's Ghanan erosa prefer very warm temps-28 or so I think- and I have Ghanan ones as well that like similar temps. I also have some I managed to locate-thanks to some local help- to from the far east of the range. These guys like much cooler temps, around 22 or so, and they actually quite like direct sunlight. Jacqui has ones which like it cooler, but don't like bright light I think.
 

leopard777

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just saw this video , there are only three species of land tortoise found in kenya ,which is leopard ,pancake and hingeback ?
 

Tom

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All Sulcatas and Leopard tortoises I have raised and am still raising(about 10), Grow fast and smooth in their indoors winter hot humid closed chambers. I toss them in the hot dry yard over the summer months and they practically stop growing. Diet does not change. I am going to get sprinklers on a timer for this coming summer and have them go off a few times a day. So I think humidity and hydration is very important.

My experience here has been identical to yours. So often we hear that "tortoises do better outdoors..." Mine don't. Apparently, neither do yours. Thanks for sharing this bot of experience with us.
 

Tom

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is it easy to find sulcata in the wild ?

No. They were almost extinct in the wild in Senegal. Down to about 40 individuals in the entire country. Tomas has now repatriated another 140 or so back to the wild from his locality specific, highly vet checked, captive bred stock. Iy was a monumental effort to make this happen, but Tomas did it. Tomas has told me that he thinks they are extinct in two other countries, but it is too dangerous right now to go there and try to confirm. He suspects that they are highly endangered in their entire range.

He knows we have millions of them over here, but the logistics of getting them back over there and approved for release are mind boggling. Ours are mostly mutts, and most of them are carrying "bugs" that they have picked up from our common housing practices over here. Plus the factors that caused them to decline are still in full force over there.
 

leopard777

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currently south sudan just ended their internal war , food are scarce , no surprise if they see a big tortoise , it will serve as a good meal
 

Juan V

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No. They don't. They stop growing for a while and their beautiful even steady growth lines all go to hell in a hand basket. I'll have to get you some close up pics. They do great when they are primarily living inside, and my adults seem to do very well also, but young growing tortoises do not do well with the dry air here. I have a tough time with this issue and this is my current biggest problem here. The transition from the correct natural conditions that I give them indoors to the very dry outdoor conditions here cause all sorts of problems. Warm humidified sleeping chambers are helping, but not eliminating the problems entirely.
Which is why I thought that maybe not giving them 80% humidity would not be a good Idea.
Do they have a pond where to soak in ? Grasslands and those marsh flats in which they live. Savannahs.. they are not humid places . They don't really live on the edge of forests... well. they do, but they are not the typical forests you'd find in your area or mine. They are forests like the ones you can find in a savannah. Life grasps on to every tiny inch of water it can find. Rainy seasons are rainy, but arid seasons thoughout the year are what cause the incredible migratory patterns you can find in those areas.

And besides, these tortoises are prone to pyramidize just a little. Not even in the wild you'll find perfeclty unpiramized tortoises. Bear in mind that they are meant to survive extreme conditions, which means they might get worse conditions (water shortages, famines...) than what you can offer them. I personally even think that a very little bit of piramiding isn't really that bad in this type of tortoise.
 

Juan V

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Tom I took your advice. Today I bought a 150W ceramic lightbulb. I've used a metalic wire and i'm hanging it from the top of the terrarium so that it falls roughly 20cm above the tortoises. I adjusted the thermostat to higher temperatures between 27 and 35 degrees, which is what they will get in summer anyway. The thermometer currently reads 33ºC (91.4 F) . I can already notice that the place is way hotter all around. And they have noticed it too, in such a way that they have moved to areas where they can find themselves more comfortable. The extra power can be felt and now the whole terrarium feels way warmer.

I am still reluctant to maxing the humidity to 90% or so , but i am increasing progresively the humidity they have from 35% up to 50%.and also i'm going to keep track of how they go, if they develop mucus (i've noticed they have a bit of mucus but I think this will improve greatly as the temperatures rise.
 

Juan V

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I'll keep everyone posted on how they do over the next weeks.
In any case, high humity with warm hot air might work all in all. But i really don't think there is a need to max humidity to 90% just as long as they have water around they'll hydrate more as much as they feel like it :)

Here in Valencia humidity is relatively high anyway, so i'm guessing they should be all right when they are moved out to the garden.

Thanks for all yor advice.
oh, and i'm also gonna update the software i'm using to include more data and information
 

Juan V

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Oh and just one last question, recommended Values for the thermostat
TEMPMAXDAY = 35
TEMPMINDAY = 28
TEMPMAXNIGHT = 30
TEMPMINNIGHT = 25

is that ok? (the sw works with celcius)
 

Levi the Leopard

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. But i really don't think there is a need to max humidity to 90%

In some cases, (like away from overhead heat sources), I agree.

For example, all my leopards were raised in closed chambers following Tom's care sheets. The hatching chamber averaged 80%RH and even higher in the hides. In the juvenile chamber it was almost constantly over 90% even 99%. But since I had heat sources over them, the higher humidity was preferred. Because keep in mind, even though I recorded those high %s, the RH levels under the bulbs where they basked, was much less.
I was very happy with the results by the way ;)

I only have 1 leopard now and at 10"/5lbs he lives outside. Free range of my yard with a tortoise house. I had the same problem as Tom.. New growth once living outside was rough and no longer smooth. So, I added humidity to his tort house but no longer aimed for the high 80-99%. I keep it moderately humid at only 60-high 70s%. I think that's a pretty good % and very comparable to what a natural burrow could be. Plus, without the dessicating affects of the heat sources I feel like the slightly lower percentage is ok.

I'm glad to see you are willing to try some new things. Even if you don't go to 90%RH at 60% your tortoises will do much better than if you kept it lower. However, it'll be interesting to see the shell growth on yours as time goes on.

Have you browsed through people's photos yet? Seen the results produced from this method?
 

leigti

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All Sulcatas and Leopard tortoises I have raised and am still raising(about 10), Grow fast and smooth in their indoors winter hot humid closed chambers. I toss them in the hot dry yard over the summer months and they practically stop growing. Diet does not change. I am going to get sprinklers on a timer for this coming summer and have them go off a few times a day. So I think humidity and hydration is very important.
It seems like hosing down the enclosure or having it set on timers as you say would definitely help with the outdoor growth issues in the summer. The extra water and a lot of vegetation should keep it relatively humid I would think. I know it does make a huge difference in my outdoor enclosure.
 

franz_see

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4. You say "1) SUN, AS MUCH OF IT AS POSSIBLE". Actually this is not the case for hatchlings. Too much sun in our outdoor enclosures dries them out and greatly slows their rates of growth when compared to their siblings raised mostly indoors on the same amount and same type of food. Some sunshine is good, but hatchlings in the wild would not be seeing much direct sunshine while hiding under their heavy thickets of vegetation. They would instead see high humidity and warm temps under there.

There's already a lot that has been mentioned in this thread, but not much about the topic on sunlight (or what I'd prefer to phrase as freely outdoor roaming vs enclosure setup) for hatchlings (in this thread, forum, or any other forums I've seen), so I thought I'd chime in on this.

First of all, I don't know enough (from reading or experience) whether too much sunlight can actually slow down their growth rates or not. What I do know, that for the 2 sulcata hatchlings I have, their growth rate have increased by mainly reducing their outdoor free roaming time from 4-6hrs a day to just 1hr a day. My enclosure however is actually outside the house wherein they still get a lot of natural sunlight (albeit reduced by shade from the house's structure or from the moist in the enclosure instead).

Specifically, i have two sulcata hatchlings. When I got them, they were 70g and 90g (and they were 5mos old at that time). After 2 mos, they've only grown to 90g and 130g respectively (note: that's on average 2.5g/wk and 5g/wk respectively). After reducing their outdoor free roaming time (as per recommendation of @Tom) to just 1hr a day, in 2 weeks, they have grown to 105g and 150g respectively (note: that's on average 7.5g/wk and 10g/wk respectively). This numbers may seem small to most owners, but for me, I already see a big change between the two setups.

I cannot explain why (sunlight? Too much exercise? Stable environment?). But it seems like hatchlings thrive better in an enclosure than freely roaming the yard (even if said yard is full of grass, and they do nothing but graze half the time). This is what I experienced.

This story though is not meant to be definitive. Rather, it's just anecdotal. But I think there's something into this that we haven't explored enough. And hopefully, we get more stories and research about the differences of hatchling growth rates for freely roaming vs an enclosure setup.

But again, going back to the topic of sunlight - I don't exactly know if they need sunlight as much as possible. The sunlight reduction in my experience maybe instrumental, or just incidental. But still enough for me to question as well whether they really do need sunlight as much as they can get.
 

Juan V

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I am starting to believe that the faster the hatchling grows doesnt necessarily mean the better. If the tortoise doesn't move, if it stays still consuming less energy then it moves less and therefore it fattens up.
Maybe sulcatas on the wild don't grow as fast as in captivity and their growth rates shouldn't be so high?
 

Tom

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I am starting to believe that the faster the hatchling grows doesnt necessarily mean the better. If the tortoise doesn't move, if it stays still consuming less energy then it moves less and therefore it fattens up.
Maybe sulcatas on the wild don't grow as fast as in captivity and their growth rates shouldn't be so high?

We've had this argument many times too. Fast growth is not the goal. Good health is the goal. When two clutch mate tortoises are fed the same foods, in the same amounts, from the same tub, the one housed indoors in a proper enclosure will grow faster and smoother that the one housed primarily outdoors. Growth is just one way to determine the health of a youngster or to what degree it is "thriving" vs. just still being alive. I've done this experiment several times and with the same size enclosures, 4x8' both indoor and out. The results are always the same. The outdoor ones grow at half to one third the rate of the indoor ones and the outdoors ones pyramid much more. Further, the outdoor ones were still sleeping indoors in a humid chamber overnight, and the outdoor ones could graze freely all day, in addition to what they were "fed". So even with access to more food, in the same size enclosure, the outdoor hatchlings simply did not fare as well as the indoor ones. franz-see's observations mirror what I have seen exactly.

What I surmise is that the growth rates that I see indoors in optimal conditions are "normal" growth rates, and something about the rigors of the great outdoors causes retardation of growth.

BTW, no one knows the growth rates of wild sulcatas. Very little is know about wild sulcatas of any age. Even if we did know an average growth rate for a given year, that data would still have limited value as far as I am concerned about this discussion.
 

Levi the Leopard

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BTW, no one knows the growth rates of wild sulcatas. Very little is know about wild sulcatas of any age.

This is a key point! And why we need to look more at "what works in our captive conditions" vs. always trying to "mimic the wild" that we know so little about.

Besides, it's just my personal opinion that wild torts probably grow faster than we think. The longer they are smaller, the longer they are lower on the food chain. It's in their "best interest" if you could call it that, for them to get bigger, sooner.
 
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