humidity not necessary

[Juan V]

Tom , where do you live? I need the exact place so I can pin it on google and... nah, just kidding, what state are you on? what kind of temperature do you have in your area? I think I read you were from texas but I cant remember properly. What kind of temperatures do you have in summer or in winter? Do they reach 303K in summer? (yes, enough with celcius, we are going kelvin now!!)

Maybe the tortoises stop growing that much after they reach a certain age. That would make sense, since growing fast is primordial and in their best interest so they dont get eaten.

Oh and by the way, I am NOT getting those growth rates nor anyway near with my sulcatas !!
This is what happened with my weed plants all over again but with tortoises , my friends had huge plants after only 8 weeks and I had to wait six months for them to reach that size even though they were the exact same species .

Yeah i know size doesn't matter (in this case), but i'm worried it might be an indicator that I'm doing something wrong

 

[Zeko]

but i'm worried it might be an indicator that I'm doing something wrong

You are doing lots wrong. As Tom and other's have posted in your other thread, and somewhat in this one.

Humidity, Temps, Lights, keeping multiple species and tortoises together....

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Just to share on the subject of growth rates...
My leopard tortoise, raised humid was exactly 8" on his second birthday. Today at 2 years, 8 months old he is 10" and 5lbs.
His growth rate slowed recently. I think it's from moving outside full time and moving out of state. (Went from sunny SoCal to southern Oregon)

 

[Juan V]

You are doing lots wrong. As Tom and other's have posted in your other thread, and somewhat in this one.

Humidity, Temps, Lights, keeping multiple species and tortoises together....

I've already corrected lights and Temps. About the multiple species I cannot do anything cos I can't separate them (don't have the budget). Hoping this wont be an issue, i'm just beginning to discover what humidity levels will be better or worse for my tortoises

 

[wellington]

I have not read this whole thread. By your last post, I hope I am reading into it that you have finally caught on how important humidity is. With the years that some have put into figuring this out, it's pretty disturbing to see someone out of no where say it's all wrong, specially when we have no idea who you are or how much experience you have.
It's not good multiple species being housed together, they all have their different needs, but if you can't afford to seperate, then there's nothing you can do then to work towards the goal of saving up money so you can give them all the proper home,

 

[wellington]

Oh, btw, Tom lives in California.

 

[mike taylor]

I was thinking he lived in Arizona .

 

[Tom]

Tom , where do you live? I need the exact place so I can pin it on google and... nah, just kidding, what state are you on? what kind of temperature do you have in your area? I think I read you were from texas but I cant remember properly. What kind of temperatures do you have in summer or in winter? Do they reach 303K in summer? (yes, enough with celcius, we are going kelvin now!!)

Maybe the tortoises stop growing that much after they reach a certain age. That would make sense, since growing fast is primordial and in their best interest so they dont get eaten.

Oh and by the way, I am NOT getting those growth rates nor anyway near with my sulcatas !!
This is what happened with my weed plants all over again but with tortoises , my friends had huge plants after only 8 weeks and I had to wait six months for them to reach that size even though they were the exact same species .

Yeah i know size doesn't matter (in this case), but i'm worried it might be an indicator that I'm doing something wrong

It says right in my little profile box next to each post that I'm in Southern CA. Does that not show up on the phone app maybe? I live north of L.A. in the Santa Clarita Valley. Our winter highs are typically 60-75 F with over night lows in the 30's. Our summer days are usually right around 100 F with over night lows in the 60's.

The slowing in growth is definitely due to moving outside, as they don't slow if I leave them inside. I don't like to move them outside full time until late spring or summer, so I will keep the bigger ones that are ready to move out inside until that time of year. Their growth does not slow down while they continue to be housed indoors, even though they are outside in the outdoor enclosure all day long when weather permits. As soon as I move them outside, growth ceases for a while. Eventually they begin to grow again, but it takes some time.

You are not seeing optimal growth rates because you are not housing them optimally.

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Does that not show up on the phone app maybe?

Correct.. It does not show up on the app and it does not show up in the web browser on the cell phones.. Well at least not on an android.

Signatures and those with links in them, also do not show up.. just an FYI for those of you that refer people to links in your signature..

 

[mike taylor]

Not only that, but links to TFO don't show up either on Android . Sucks some times but all I have is my phone or I'll have to fight the kiddie for the pc .

 

[wellington]

Wow, thanks Heather and Mike, I didnt know things didn't show on phones. Now I know why a lot of members never can see my links of Toms threads when I refer them to it.

 

[franz_see]

We've had this argument many times too. Fast growth is not the goal. Good health is the goal. When two clutch mate tortoises are fed the same foods, in the same amounts, from the same tub, the one housed indoors in a proper enclosure will grow faster and smoother that the one housed primarily outdoors. Growth is just one way to determine the health of a youngster or to what degree it is "thriving" vs. just still being alive. I've done this experiment several times and with the same size enclosures, 4x8' both indoor and out. The results are always the same. The outdoor ones grow at half to one third the rate of the indoor ones and the outdoors ones pyramid much more. Further, the outdoor ones were still sleeping indoors in a humid chamber overnight, and the outdoor ones could graze freely all day, in addition to what they were "fed". So even with access to more food, in the same size enclosure, the outdoor hatchlings simply did not fare as well as the indoor ones. franz-see's observations mirror what I have seen exactly.

What I surmise is that the growth rates that I see indoors in optimal conditions are "normal" growth rates, and something about the rigors of the great outdoors causes retardation of growth.

BTW, no one knows the growth rates of wild sulcatas. Very little is know about wild sulcatas of any age. Even if we did know an average growth rate for a given year, that data would still have limited value as far as I am concerned about this discussion.

Agree. My personal theory is that the act of grazing itself is "too much exercise". As an adult, they don't have to exert much effort to rip grass/weeds off the ground. But for hatchlings, they have to exert a lot of effort just to rip the grass/weeds out. And with that, they burn a lot of what they ate on (both those grazed and those fed).

How much effort? Here's a video of my Curtis grazing [1] (Note: A wider video which shows his whole body being lifted is in [2]. Skip to 22 seconds in to see the body lift). In this video, he was exerting a lot of effort to rip the weed of the ground that he lifted his whole body with his neck. It's funny & cute as hell, but gives you an idea as well how much effort it is to graze for hatchlings.

[1] http://www.enjoygram.com/m/864855752773524194_616665309
[2] https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net...=e1cebd6ff63c8f7cc7c8caad2c63e949&oe=54A13CF2

 

[franz_see]

This is a key point! And why we need to look more at "what works in our captive conditions" vs. always trying to "mimic the wild" that we know so little about.

Besides, it's just my personal opinion that wild torts probably grow faster than we think. The longer they are smaller, the longer they are lower on the food chain. It's in their "best interest" if you could call it that, for them to get bigger, sooner.

Good point

 

[FLINTUS]

Agree. My personal theory is that the act of grazing itself is "too much exercise". As an adult, they don't have to exert much effort to rip grass/weeds off the ground. But for hatchlings, they have to exert a lot of effort just to rip the grass/weeds out. And with that, they burn a lot of what they ate on (both those grazed and those fed).

How much effort? Here's a video of my Curtis grazing [1] (Note: A wider video which shows his whole body being lifted is in [2]. Skip to 22 seconds in to see the body lift). In this video, he was exerting a lot of effort to rip the weed of the ground that he lifted his whole body with his neck. It's funny & cute as hell, but gives you an idea as well how much effort it is to graze for hatchlings.

[1] http://www.enjoygram.com/m/864855752773524194_616665309
[2] https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net...=e1cebd6ff63c8f7cc7c8caad2c63e949&oe=54A13CF2

Sorry, but this is just wrong. Tortoises in the wild roam much bigger distances, and therefore use up a lot more energy, than they do in captivity.

 

[franz_see]

Sorry, but this is just wrong. Tortoises in the wild roam much bigger distances, and therefore use up a lot more energy, than they do in captivity.

Actually, I think the roaming part is not much of a problem. It's the grazing per se. Roaming is steady energy (i.e. endurance). Grazing (for hatchlings) involves power (i.e. they do not steadily cut the grass, but violently rip them off). But again, this is just my guess and I have no idea how fast they grow in the wild and what actually happens there

 

[Juan V]

In the wild they have to roam more than in captivity. Bear in mind that if you have grass and you water the grass, there's probably going to be enough grass for the animals to graze in the same spot, where as in the wild, the water comes and goes so grazing areas appear and disappear, forcing the animals to move and wander, nomadicly to find the best sources of food.

 

[Tom]

Tortoises in the wild roam much bigger distances, and therefore use up a lot more energy, than they do in captivity.

My experiments have addressed this issue. Both my indoor and outdoor groups had 4x8' enclosures, so equal roaming space. This can only be an estimation, but it seemed to me that the indoor ones were more active and mobile than the outdoor ones. The outdoor ones would frequently find a spot where they felt they had good cover and they would park there for a while. The indoor ones, on the whole, were moving around more and parking less.

I realize your statement is in regards to wild vs. captive, but you are making this remark to refute franz_see's theory of why indoor ones grow faster than outdoor ones.

My theory on why this happens is two-fold, and still just a guess. I think it has to do with the stability of indoor conditions in my enclosures. They don't get the temperature or humidity extremes over the course of a day that outdoor ones get. I also think the higher humidity that I provide indoors helps to prevent dehydration. In all of my experiments over the last few years, it seems that good hydration promotes more growth than anything other single factor. This is just one reason why I dispute the whole theory that "fast" growth is somehow bad. My theory is that mine are growing faster because they are better hydrated. How else would you explain it when they are taking in the same nutrition and amount calories that the outdoor groups are getting, or less even, yet growing faster than the ones outside. If dehydration is needed as a tool to get tortoises to grow at what some people consider a more "natural" rate, then you can count me out.

So stability of environmental conditions, and good hydration (to include slowing the loss of water through respiration by providing higher levels of humidity) are the two things that I propose make up the difference in growth rates for indoor housed tortoises and outdoor housed tortoises.

 

[Juan V]

i'll take note of that and i'll repost in a few months to see how my torts have progressed with the new changes. (high humidity and higher temps)

 

[FLINTUS]

My experiments have addressed this issue. Both my indoor and outdoor groups had 4x8' enclosures, so equal roaming space. This can only be an estimation, but it seemed to me that the indoor ones were more active and mobile than the outdoor ones. The outdoor ones would frequently find a spot where they felt they had good cover and they would park there for a while. The indoor ones, on the whole, were moving around more and parking less.

I realize your statement is in regards to wild vs. captive, but you are making this remark to refute franz_see's theory of why indoor ones grow faster than outdoor ones.

My theory on why this happens is two-fold, and still just a guess. I think it has to do with the stability of indoor conditions in my enclosures. They don't get the temperature or humidity extremes over the course of a day that outdoor ones get. I also think the higher humidity that I provide indoors helps to prevent dehydration. In all of my experiments over the last few years, it seems that good hydration promotes more growth than anything other single factor. This is just one reason why I dispute the whole theory that "fast" growth is somehow bad. My theory is that mine are growing faster because they are better hydrated. How else would you explain it when they are taking in the same nutrition and amount calories that the outdoor groups are getting, or less even, yet growing faster than the ones outside. If dehydration is needed as a tool to get tortoises to grow at what some people consider a more "natural" rate, then you can count me out.

So stability of environmental conditions, and good hydration (to include slowing the loss of water through respiration by providing higher levels of humidity) are the two things that I propose make up the difference in growth rates for indoor housed tortoises and outdoor housed tortoises.

No, I agree that indoor ones grow faster than wild ones, what I was particularly picking up on was the 'too much exercise' bit, which I think was just poor.
And I agree with you, indoor enclosures are more stable in conditions, and therefore will encourage faster growth-although natural sunlight is beneficial, and conditions in the wild, as we've talked about before, aren't 'optimal' for growth most of the year, only during the wet season, despite these tortoises evolving to do their main growth in only 3 months of the year or so-my personal theory on that is down to tectonics and climate change, but that's kind of off-topic a bit. And I also agree with you, that humid and warmth encourage faster growth than a drier area, but this is why tortoises do tend to grow less in the wild, as they don't have year-round 'optimal' conditions, if you're defining that as hot and humid.
But that all said, tortoises will use up a lot more calories in a bigger enclosure, because they 'roam' further, and don't have food put in front of them.

 

[Tom]

And I agree with you, indoor enclosures are more stable in conditions, and therefore will encourage faster growth-although natural sunlight is beneficial, and conditions in the wild, as we've talked about before, aren't 'optimal' for growth most of the year, only during the wet season, despite these tortoises evolving to do their main growth in only 3 months of the year or so-my personal theory on that is down to tectonics and climate change, but that's kind of off-topic a bit. And I also agree with you, that humid and warmth encourage faster growth than a drier area, but this is why tortoises do tend to grow less in the wild, as they don't have year-round 'optimal' conditions, if you're defining that as hot and humid.
But that all said, tortoises will use up a lot more calories in a bigger enclosure, because they 'roam' further, and don't have food put in front of them.

I wish to contend two points above:
1. SOME natural sunlight is beneficial. I have found that outside all day with access to sun is actually detrimental to hatchlings. If you are looking at what seems to be the model of what happens in nature this would make sense. Babies will not spend hours a day walking around in direct sun. It is much too hot in Africa where they come from for this, and it would also expose them to predators too much. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that babies spend most of every day nestled and hidden deep within the thick underbrush, and very little time exposed to direct sunshine.
2. You assert that they have optimal conditions for only 3 months of the year. I don't agree. What you are referring to, I assume from our discussion, is the rainy season. Here again you have fallen into the mistake of only considering the wild conditions where the tortoises are NOT hanging out. Yes, above ground conditions are only optimal for those 3 or 4 months of the year, but the tortoises spend very little time above ground at any time of the year. The statistic from "The Crying Tortoise" is that sulcatas spend 98% of their lives underground. When I infer what I see here in my own burrows during hot dry conditions that are very similar to the African dry season, burrow conditions remain stable, humid and what I would consider optimal. So, my point is: I think it is incorrect for you to assume that conditions are less than optimal for growth for young sulcatas during the dry season, based solely on what we are speculating above ground conditions to be.